Atomic Amps - "Coincident Linear Reference" Designed by Jay Mitchell

TheOtherDave said:
True, but, at least the way I read it, he also implied that he only didn't like the AxeFX II because of the frequent significant firmware changes. I don't really feel like reading through 22(!) pages to find the exact quote, but it was something like "I'm waiting for Cliff to decide what he wants do, and the firmware churn to settle down for at least six months :)" (ok, it may not have been a ":)", but there was definitely a smiley of some sort at the end).
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Actually the dialog was like this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by iggypop
What´s your ideal rig at present?

JM: My Standard into my personal W/D/W system.

Your Standard has the special sauce the II doesn't?
(When you said that I thought you had given up on the Axe).

JM:Not at this time. For all its shortcomings - and there are some significant ones in both generations - it continues to serve the purpose for which I bought it better than anything else out there. These days I occasionally run up against limitations that I'd prefer weren't there, but the II does not address those any better than the I at this time.



Now, I didn't think it would be delicate to pursue this discussion further, and wait for someone to start some off-topic flame war... let it rest...
 
Robboman said:
How can someone as objective and factual as Jay say so definitively that the Crown amp had "absolutely nothing to do with" the audible differences? You listen to A, then B. You hear stark audible differences... between a $5000 rig and a $1000 rig! How can a lightweight, onboard class-D module be expected to sound as good as the Crown?
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Mhhh... I think Mr. Mitchell was referring to the main reasons (according to himself) why the two cabinets sounded differently from each other: that is, the design and the implementation. Possibily implying you'd hear the difference anyway.
He has also stated that changing the poweramp doesn't change the way his speakers perform... but in another post he mentioned the advantages of the active cabinets (which I agree with according to my knowledge): that the electric coupling of poweramp and transducer is optimized:

"The active version is substantially less expensive than a passive plus a quality power amplifier and has a guaranteed-ideal match of amplifier, filter, and transducer characteristics. IOW, the benefits of the active version - which is actively crossed over - are fairly obvious."

And this translates, as a matter of fact, into a better sound performance.
 
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Robboman said:
How can someone as objective and factual as Jay say so definitively that the Crown amp had "absolutely nothing to do with" the audible differences? You listen to A, then B. You hear stark audible differences... between a $5000 rig and a $1000 rig! How can a lightweight, onboard class-D module be expected to sound as good as the Crown?
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If Jay stated that on TGP (haven't had time to catch up with it) then I would assume it to be the case. I cannot categorically state that the Crown amp had "absolutely nothing to do with the audible differences".
Given that the only opportunity to A/B was with 2 powered speakers (K10 and and EVLiveX) and we never got to the EV's, there WAS a significantly obvious difference between the CLR's and the K10. Was that the Crown? <shrug>

It's amazing how much "speculation" has occurred on these forums over one short video :)
 
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Robboman said:
How can someone as objective and factual as Jay say so definitively that the Crown amp had "absolutely nothing to do with" the audible differences?
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Maybe he has a high opinion of the amps in, what was is again, the K12s? Perhaps he knows how each amp colors the sound and can rule it out as the source of the audible differences? On the other side of the argument, perhaps he is a little too certain about the sensitivity of human hearing?

Robboman said:
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against active monitors. Though I have heard opinions that class D power = harsh (I think it was Cliff who suggested that).
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Poorly designed class D amps can be harsh, yes, and it may be that it's easier to poorly design a class D amp than, say, a class A amp, but one of the smoothest-sounding amps I've ever heard is class D.
 
iggypop said:
Actually the dialog was like this:


Quote:
<something not at all resembling what I wrote>


Now, I didn't think it would be delicate to pursue this discussion further, and wait for someone to start some off-topic flame war... let it rest...
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Huh... I wonder what I was remembering? Well, my mistake, I stand corrected.
 
Robboman said:
Though I have heard opinions that class D power = harsh (I think it was Cliff who suggested that).
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The class D amp I heard sounded fantastic. IMO, the quality of the design is more important than the type. I think class D amps are getting a bad reputation for the same reasons that led analog fans to criticize digital audio processors in the past. It is too easy to implement a cheap design. If the market is flooded with cheap designs, the entire class is frowned upon.
 
viabcroce said:
At one third of the prize, this is a legitimate question for sure. On TGP Mr. Mitchell stated that

Originally Posted by Banned User

-Are there differences left between the CLR and your personal monitor?


None that are of any relevance to this discussion.

If I got the character right, this can mean nothing to everything. My educated guess (also coming from what I know about Audio, engineering and commerce) is that it means "of course my personal monitors are much better; but this is irrelevant because they're not for sale to private customers and you won't anyway get anything better for the price".
Which finally makes anyway sense :)
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You are 100% totally and completely wrong. I'll let Jay Mitchell address your post. The following is by Jay Mitchell and copied over from The Gear Page.
____________

Jay Mitchell:
I feel compelled to clarify a remark I made in this thread, because it has been the subject of false speculation. In response to:
"Are there differences left between the CLR and your personal monitor?"

I said,
"None that are of any relevance to this discussion."

By which I meant exactly what I said, neither more nor less. Because of the, shall we say, "creative" endeavors of some of the less ethical individuals who participate in online forums, a huge fairy tale has been fabricated from the above sentence.

It really isn't relevant to this discussion, but, to stop the idiocy going any further, here are the salient differences:
1. My monitor uses an 8" woofer and has less low-frequency bandwidth than the CLR.
2. My monitor is slightly smaller (the total depth is less) and weighs less.

This is really and truly irrelevant but apparently necessary:

For program material with bandwidth suitable for my monitor (e.g., guitar, vocals), there is no detectable difference in sound.
____________

Scott Simpson:
I just spoke to Jay on the phone. Straight from Jay Mitchell:
There is no detectable difference in sound between his Frazier monitor and the CLR.
 
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iggypop said:
Interestingly, Jay said his ideal rig at the present is his Standard coupled to his W/D/W monitors.
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Yup... There are a few bells and whistles that I would like to have so I'm seriously considering offing my Standard and coughing up the $3-400 and grab an Ultra. Seems that prices have really settled in with the first gen units.
 
scotts said:
You are 100% totally and completely wrong. I'll let Jay Mitchell address your post. The following is by Jay Mitchell and copied over from The Gear Page.
____________

Jay Mitchell:
I feel compelled to clarify a remark I made in this thread, because it has been the subject of false speculation. In response to:
"Are there differences left between the CLR and your personal monitor?"

I said,
"None that are of any relevance to this discussion."

By which I meant exactly what I said, neither more nor less. Because of the, shall we say, "creative" endeavors of some of the less ethical individuals who participate in online forums, a huge fairy tale has been fabricated from the above sentence.

It really isn't relevant to this discussion, but, to stop the idiocy going any further, here are the salient differences:
1. My monitor uses an 8" woofer and has less low-frequency bandwidth than the CLR.
2. My monitor is slightly smaller (the total depth is less) and weighs less.

This is really and truly irrelevant but apparently necessary:

For program material with bandwidth suitable for my monitor (e.g., guitar, vocals), there is no detectable difference in sound.
____________

Scott Simpson:
I just spoke to Jay on the phone. Straight from Jay Mitchell:
There is no detectable difference in sound between his Frazier monitor and the CLR.
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Thanks Scott, I'm following the thread on TGP as well and had already read Mr. Mitchell's post.

I'm of course very glad to hear this, even tho how two cabs designed by the same engineer may sound the same with three times the difference in final price remains a mystery to me :) AFAIK the market, the marginal profit isn't as high to allow such a freedom in defining the final price.
If I sell a good at 1,000, my whole costs can't be higher than 400-500. Were the Atomics' low price allowed by Eastern manufacturing, and whereas this fact did not affect the sound at all, remains a mystery to me why the other brand (sorry, I'm missing it at the moment) is produced at about four times the cost (it might actually be seven times the profit, IDK).
I have to underline that I'm not interested in unveiling any market speculation here, since I believe any firm is allowed to put themselves in the market as they like. I believe instead that understanding more about a firm's marketing helps put their products in the right perspective. OTOH, I'm sure the CLR will sound amazingly :)

Finally, I'm not at all surprised by Mr. Mitchell's tones and his offensive words (about idiocy, for example): it's typical of the character. I also find amusing his talk about "some of the less ethical individuals", considering the source. I'm sure Mr. Mitchell is one of the most skilled people on the planet when it comes to audio engineering, but I consider him a person completely lacking in good manners and courtesy when it comes to respecting other people.
 
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viabcroce said:
Finally, I'm not at all surprised by Mr. Mitchell's tones and his offensive words (about idiocy, for example): it's typical of the character. I also find amusing his talk about "some of the less ethical individuals", considering the source. I'm sure Mr. Mitchell is one of the most skilled people on the planet when it comes to audio engineering, but I consider him a person completely lacking in good manners and courtesy when it comes to respecting other people.
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In my opinion Jay is doing better now than before online. I have the advantage of knowing him as a friend and speaking directly with him. He just gets so deeply frustrated and aggravated with how things play out on the internet. I must say that I do as well. People rattle off at their keyboards with many thoughts best reserved for intimate discussion with close friends. People rattle off at their keyboards with endless speculation best reserved for intimate discussion with teachers and mentors. Overdoses of internet forum interaction can cause us to live in future/fantasy/projections that keep them/us from experiencing the ever changing "now".

The Internet is a powerful tool, a powerful "act of men". I also see it as potentially one of the most spiritually dangerous things ever created.
____________

It is interesting to note that in person Jay Mitchell, the real Jay Mitchell, is a warm hearted, well spoken, kindly and genial man just like you saw in the video.

Like me, his spirit has trouble interacting in the cold, impersonal world of the internet forum.

I repeat:
The Internet is a powerful tool, a powerful "act of men". I also see it as potentially one of the most spiritually dangerous things ever created.
____________

"Oh wow Scott I have 10,000 friends on Facebook!"

If that's your idea of friendship my online distant acquaintance, you in trouble.
 
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Thanks Scott for your reply.
If a person asked my advice about not feeling at ease on forums, I'd suggest them to just avoid those unpleasant environments.
Since this is very OT, I'll reserve my further judgments on single people for myself, or for private conversations :) Just let me state that, in my opinion, there's nothing like "the real" person as opposite to a "fictitious person": we just happen to play several roles in our day. But, a person is a whole.
Many famous characters of the past, known for they cruelty, were said to be delicious with their dogs or their kids and families. This did not make them less psychotic (no pun intended, and no direct reference to Mr. Mitchell, of course). If you gave me stupid answers half of the time and smart ones for the rest, you'd be stupid nevertheless: your stupid answers would just reveal the way parts of your brain work.

Anyway, I'm sure Mr. Mitchell knows how to build cabs ;D

Peace,
 
GuitarDojo said:
You know all this talk is great....

.BUT I am fixing to start stalking Tom !!! :razz
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And that is why this thread should now wander deliriously, swimmingly, distractingly off topic.

If we read this ENTIRE thread and the ENTIRE thread on the The Gear Page we have ALL the information we need until launch.

Now we need to restrain our lustful future projection and live in the moment knowing full well that we can survive without ever buying another piece of gear.
____________

I messed up with this kind of thinking really bad a long time ago.

After several discussions with my mentor we agreed that the best overall thing to do for my development was for me to stop playing guitar completely for a while. Twenty years ago I stopped playing guitar. The world opened up before me. My appreciation of music went through the roof. I learned how to listen, how to be the audience, how to feel joy in the creation of others with no "I'm a musician too" discrimination.

Ten years ago I started playing again. I'm doing a much better job this time and having a lot more fun.
 
scotts said:
I just wish I didn't look like such a dork when I play.
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Well, the way you hold the guitar you could almost hide behind it! :p Seriously, I've never seen someone hold the guitar as much as a cello like you. Did that come naturally, or because of injuries & stuff?
Is that the Pat Metheny model? It looks small on you and it should sound like Pat!!!! LOL ;) Anyway, I'd say you play well above average 8)
 
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