Asking for your TRUTH

[TheGoatLord]

why?

You are basically telling the OP that he should get used to a representation of a representation of his guitar tone.


1. IR (which is a representation of a cab)
2. Fed through a monitor (output of which is a representation of a cab being miked)

If you like and enjoy the "in-room" experience Why not cut to the chase and play through a real cab with an amp driving it?

for recording and large stages (PA) I can see it, but for home or small stages I don't see why a person should have to "get used to" and accept something different than what sounds and feels best to them.

I'm speaking from my experience which was not having a real cab or amp to drive it because I sold them to buy the axe. I added further in the thread that a big part of getting the sound I wanted was playing through a speaker system that could push air like a cab could. For me, that was the CLR and bam! Big thumpy rich sound. Adding to that, like Cliff said, the axe models a micd amp so yes, I am telling the OP to get used to hearing their sound that way because that is what this box does. Yes you can play it through your amp/cab and turn off the poweramp/cab sims but you're losing a large portion of the axe's functionality at that point for a rather limited result. Obviously if that's your thing, then by all means play your heart out through your rigs effects loop but I think a lot of us had to get used to the idea of what a guitar sounds like with everyone else playing to really understand and enjoy what the axe is doing. Once that clicks, it's a golden box.

 

[dupere11497]

The crux of the problem is that most people have never heard a mic'd guitar amp in isolation and it's quite a shock when you first do.

I challenge anybody to go to the studio with me, mic up an amp in isolation and then A/B that with the Axe-Fx and tell me which is which. We consistently fool producers and engineers and when they do hear a difference it's usually "the Axe-Fx sounds better".

And I don't get that in the room tone debate! I mean, the tone in your head is probably one you heard on a record. The great tone we are use to are recorded ones, heavily process guitar tone! The advantage of the Axe fx is you get THAT tone plus the feel! And you can achieve this at any volume!! An old Plexi sounds great when cranked! At home, there is no way I could even hear the amp because walls would be shaking with volume at half point!

 

[Irotlas]

The crux of the problem is that most people have never heard a mic'd guitar amp in isolation and it's quite a shock when you first do.

I challenge anybody to go to the studio with me, mic up an amp in isolation and then A/B that with the Axe-Fx and tell me which is which. We consistently fool producers and engineers and when they do hear a difference it's usually "the Axe-Fx sounds better".

Yep that's right. The sound is good and that's why we use it.

But I've recorded a lot with dual rectos and compared what I've got with axe fx. You get the sound 95% but the real recto has more attack and bit always. Some amp models actually feels more real than others. Rectos on axe fx sound good, I really like them but dont feel like they should. For example triaxis feels more like my Roadster used to but obviously recto models sounds more like Roadster did..

My point is that the "pro" players like Petrucci still like to use their tube heads even they admit axe fx sound good as hell!

...guess we need that 5%..

 

[toolfanem]

Yep that's right. The sound is good and that's why we use it.

But I've recorded a lot with dual rectos and compared what I've got with axe fx. You get the sound 95% but the real recto has more attack and bit always. Some amp models actually feels more real than others. Rectos on axe fx sound good, I really like them but dont feel like they should. For example triaxis feels more like my Roadster used to but obviously recto models sounds more like Roadster did..

My point is that the "pro" players like Petrucci still like to use their tube heads even they admit axe fx sound good as hell!

...guess we need that 5%..

"Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one and they usually stink..."

 

[Randall d]

I know people that tried diet soda and hated it, but had to lower sugar consumption, so they switched anyway. After they got used to the diet stuff they say they prefer it and can't stand drinking regular soda anymore. Give it some time; you will probably adapt, and could end up preferring the Axe to a real amp.

 

[GreatGreen]

I've come to the realization that "tone in the room" is actually "tone when the cab is at location X in room Y and my head is at position Z, which has a radius of about a foot before the sound completely changes."

"Tone in the room" doesn't really exist in the way we think it does. Realistically, it's more like "tone from a cab when you stand in exactly this one relative spot and nowhere else."

With a cab, because they're so directional, most folks correct for their own ambient eq rapidly in real time by moving their head around until the response is just right. Then they neglect to attribute that particular bit of adjustment with what they believe the amp in the room to sound like. They don't think "my amp sounds like crap in 99% of the listening locations in this room except for this one spot where it sounds fantastic" they just think "my amp in this room sounds fantastic."

You can't do that with the Axe-Fx in an FRFR environment. You have to adjust controls, which takes more time and creative effort. I'd be willing to bet "tone in the room" with the right PA and EQ is actually perfectly achievable... it would just take a bit more work than simple head movement.

 

[LVC]

I'm speaking from my experience which was not having a real cab or amp to drive it because I sold them to buy the axe. I added further in the thread that a big part of getting the sound I wanted was playing through a speaker system that could push air like a cab could. For me, that was the CLR and bam! Big thumpy rich sound.

I did not want to comment on the second part of your post....

But since you brought it up directly to me ...

My findings actually were quite the opposite of yours. None of the powered monitors I have owned (including the CLR) do not even remotely come close to a real cab (tone/feel/experience) being driven by an amp....

and none of them not push any air of the breathable sort.

But in any event .. enjoy playing music in good health!

 

[clarky]

Axe -> GT1000FX -> a pair of Marshall 4x12 cabs

sounds mental

nothing more I can add to that..

 

[Valhallir]

Sometimes I don't understand some People here...."Amp in the Room"....paaaah...
If I turn on the Axe with my Fave Preset and Let it go through my FRFR...I have plenty of "In the Room-Sound"...And i have the Sweet Spot Sound in a 90degree angle...and i don't have to step aside One Meter like with a real Cab... A direct beam of a real 4x12 Cab is Pain in the ass...and the People, who like that, Must be masochists or already deaf...with a good Mix IR, i get all of the "Sweetspot-Love" and physikalisch reaction that I want to feel and hear...and I can have that in a volume, that is Not fucking my Ears to Death...

Ok, especially, when you don't like Manowar-Volume (like me...I'm Even using my earplugs on Pop concerts to Save my Ears)
You can enjoy the Sound, That comes Out of your speakers...if they are Real guitar Cabs or "just" FRFRs, that bring the characteristics of your Fave Cab Out (at all Volumes) ...and if you are playing in the Same room...you have your "inyourroomwhatanidioticphraseisthis" ...

...just my few Cents....and a good new Year to all of you...

 

[joegold]

I've come to the realization that "tone in the room" is actually "tone when the cab is at location X in room Y and my head is at position Z, which has a radius of about a foot before the sound completely changes."

"Tone in the room" doesn't really exist in the way we think it does. Realistically, it's more like "tone from a cab when you stand in exactly this one relative spot and nowhere else."

With a cab, because they're so directional, most folks correct for their own ambient eq rapidly in real time by moving their head around until the response is just right. Then they neglect to attribute that particular bit of adjustment with what they believe the amp in the room to sound like. They don't think "my amp sounds like crap in 99% of the listening locations in this room except for this one spot where it sounds fantastic" they just think "my amp in this room sounds fantastic."

You can't do that with the Axe-Fx in an FRFR environment. You have to adjust controls, which takes more time and creative effort. I'd be willing to bet "tone in the room" with the right PA and EQ is actually perfectly achievable... it would just take a bit more work than simple head movement.

Then the goal is, for those after the "amp-in-the-room sound/feel, to somehow capture that ideal listening spot and reproduce it somehow via an FRFR monitoring system which, if sophisticated enough, should minimize any dispersion/beaming issues that the real guitar cab had.

I believe that the methodology to do this doesn't actually exist yet, but only because I haven't heard it yet.
But I think the technology to do it probably does exist.
It's just a matter of putting the required elements together in a successful way that's not too much of a drag on the form factor.

E.g. It's pretty easy to mimic the feel of an open back cab by using 2 FRFR monitors back to back.
But who's going to lug all that around to gigs, especially in stereo?

And one of the reasons that players like me prefer open back cabs is that when playing small clubs with small bands it's easier for your band-mates to hear you across the stage or behind you.
The few gigs that *I've* done with closed-back cabs haven't really worked out all that well.
But guys like me are certainly not the majority of the electric guitar community.

Maybe some company like Atomic or Matrix will start experimenting with FRFR cabs that have a programmable back-firing capability, programmable so you can turn it off when you want to have the sound of a closed back guitar cab.

Obviously, I'm just spit-balling here.

But if they do it and it makes them money, I want a cut!

 

[jimfist]

Maybe some company like Atomic or Matrix will start experimenting with FRFR cabs that have a programmable back-firing capability, programmable so you can turn it off when you want to have the sound of a closed back guitar cab.

Obviously, I'm just spit-balling here.

But if they do it and it makes them money, I want a cut!

Hey, wait! You get your cut after I get mine....and after Jay Mitchell gets his...

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/amps-cabs/64792-simulated-open-back-room-effect.html

 

[clarky]

thought:

if you run a good FRFR solution and in the Axe you use a cab block without a mic, or a cab with 'mix' in the title
is that not the same as an amp / cab in the room with you??

 

[Valhallir]

IMHO: exactly.

 

[FractalAudio]

thought:

if you run a good FRFR solution and in the Axe you use a cab block without a mic, or a cab with 'mix' in the title
is that not the same as an amp / cab in the room with you??

No. The only way to get close is to shoot an IR that represents the position of your head/ears relative to the guitar cab. IOW, you would shoot an IR with the mic, say, 10 ft away and off to one side. Even then the dispersion of FRFR is completely different. Guitar cabs have varying directivity, the high frequencies are more directional than the low frequencies. FRFR cabs strive to maintain constant directivity over the frequencies of interest.

IRs are almost exclusively close-mic'd. They represent the sound of the cab in the near field as this is commonly used for recording. "In the room" is a far-field response.

This topic has been discussed ad-nauseum and is a fundamental paradigm of ALL modelers/profilers/IR-players/etc.

 

[LVC]

thought:

if you run a good FRFR solution and in the Axe you use a cab block without a mic, or a cab with 'mix' in the title
is that not the same as an amp / cab in the room with you??

You can certainly capture the "ambience" of a real cab (reverb, EQs etc) with a powered monitor but that is where it ends in my book. The physical structure of a real cab/vs a powered monitor will make any comparison challenging IMO
.
A real cab has air volume that is selectively trapped, bounced or channeled. Besides the air flow and volume capacity of the cab design, you have the cab size, shape, ports and woods etc all of which accumulate to real air pressure being generated with every pulsation of the speaker generating the in room experience.

I looked inside a powered monitor ... the only air that was inside of it was a lot of "hot" air being pushed out by fans.

Both have their purpose and both accomplish radically different things, again IMO.

 

[Sixstring]

So if an I/R is a true representation of a close mic'ed sound, when it is amplified via FR would it not then become a representation of a far-field sound at the other end of the room :lol.

 

[Morphosis]

is that not the same as an amp / cab in the room with you??

I experiment a lot in that area, comparing real guitar cabinet vs. FRFR, shooting IRs, room corrections for monitoring FRFR "off axis" to get more "amp in the room" feeling, tonematchings of both systems, etc ...

In the meantime i would say: You can come really close if you know how to handle things, but i believe also that there will be physical differences beetween those two approaches of monitoring yourself, that will always make a difference between the one and the other. Those differences will be not worse or better and different guitar Cabs will result perhaps sometimes in more differences to "feel", pressure and blabla .. than FRFR to guitar Cab... Make a long story short: If you love the feel of a dedicated guitar cabinet: Play it! The Axe-Fx support this way of monitoring - No problem.

 

[FractalAudio]

So if an I/R is a true representation of a close mic'ed sound, when it is amplified via FR would it not then become a representation of a far-field sound at the other end of the room :lol.

No. The near field is not uniform. That is why the sound changes drastically when moving the mic.

 

[Morphosis]

So if an I/R is a true representation of a close mic'ed sound, when it is amplified via FR would it not then become a representation of a far-field sound at the other end of the room :lol.

What would happen if you stand a guitar cabinet side by side to a FRFR Monitor - the speakers of both systems are directed in the same way and you do a tonematch with a measurement mic in the position where the guitar players ear is? So: guitar cabinet = reference; FRFR = local. Measure with a sine sweep with average time = peak in the TMA Block.

I´ve done that - surprising result! Sound AND feel will come very close out of the FRFR in comparison to the real cab... a problem is still the "room factor", but the results reassure me for more ...

 

[Ron_R]

I think we're just splitting hairs here. Zappa said it best..."Shut up and play yer guitar"...:eagerness: