Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR - UPDATED 7/27/09

[javajunkie]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

I have a hard time understanting why people care whether it uses tubes, solid state or a mouse on a wheel if it sounds great, weighs less than similar solutions, is affordable and compact.

The Axe-Fx does not needs tubes! It needs a great sounding, transparent amplification source. That is what we set out to deliver to our customers that delivers the goods consistently at low, med, and high volumes.

DaveP and steveb make excellent points, IMHO.

Maintenance would be my only concern, but if the product sounds great who care about the occational changing of tubes.

 

[Tom King]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

Maintenance would be my only concern, but if the product sounds great who care about the occational changing of tubes.

I agree with you Java - valid point. Maintenance needs to be considered but as Atomic's engineer, Harry Kolbe says "I have plenty of SS amps that come into my shop after blowing up and/or badly in need of maintenance. And when the go down, they go down hard".

 

[javajunkie]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

Maintenance would be my only concern, but if the product sounds great who care about the occational changing of tubes.

I agree with you Java - valid point. Maintenance needs to be considered but as Atomic's engineer, Harry Kolbe says "I have plenty of SS amps that come into my shop after blowing up and/or badly in need of maintenance. And when the go down, they go down hard".

I assume the 6l6s are biased fairly cold?

 

[TimmyM]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

I'm in the camp that have heard tube powered hi-fi audio and know it can be flat frequency, but can also add that special something to bring the music alive again.

What with the suggestion this will work in a pinch as a PA for vocals, acoustic guitar, music playback, I'd be very very keen to give something like this a try in all of the above applications - if I can tear myself away from playing my axe-fx ultra through it! Could be a good way to get a decent tube stereo hi-fi system Any word on the possibility of a flat frequency tube sub-woofer that could be added on with a high-pass filter crossover in built.

As for tube maintenance, I know a good tech and am happy to pay him to maintain something like this.

TimmyM

 

[mranonimouse]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

It's simply not possible to have the punch of a real speaker out from a FRFR, but you get pretty close to the miked amp signal you hear when you listen it trough your studio near/farfield sound system.

I think it is possible to have the punch of a real speaker from a FRFR.

First of all, a FRFR of course contains a real speaker which suggest it to be possible.

Atomic might have come up with a system with a time response that exhibits a better than average step function response when compared to other FRFRs. This would imply good reproduction of transients. Hence some 'punch. At the very least it would be punchier than other FRFRs.

 

[Tom King]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

Maintenance would be my only concern, but if the product sounds great who care about the occational changing of tubes.

I agree with you Java - valid point. Maintenance needs to be considered but as Atomic's engineer, Harry Kolbe says "I have plenty of SS amps that come into my shop after blowing up and/or badly in need of maintenance. And when the go down, they go down hard".

I assume the 6l6s are biased fairly cold?

No, they are biased in the sweet spot.

 

[<MACHINE>]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

It's simply not possible to have the punch of a real speaker out from a FRFR, but you get pretty close to the miked amp signal you hear when you listen it trough your studio near/farfield sound system.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I laugh because I was there and heard it for myself. I'm not an overly skeptical person but I did have my reservations about the new Atomic...wow has that reservation been canceled!!!

I suppose one could state they might not like the tone of this or that amp
(Axe-Fx being the source)through the Atomic, due to the fact that tone is so "subjective" :roll: But as far as any one of those amps sounding/feeling real and in the room is no longer debatable...again it might not be "your EQ settings..er...ah...I mean your tone"...but every nuance of a "tube amp" is there.

 

[Rico]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

I can see how this might be really nice for playing to yourself, but onstage I still think its best to hear what the audience is hearing if at all possible, I do understand tho that there are lot of guitarists that just can't play without that cab sound/feeling, but still what's the point of sounding great to yourself but the audience ain't getting it, my aim is always to get the audience and myself in harmony, I don't want to be hearing something completely different to them, I don't want to sound like I'm putting the product down because I'm sure it's great, and I am sure it will be a success, I'm just not sure how I could use it other than for my own personal pleasure, which is always an option

best

Rico

 

[mranonimouse]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

I can see how this might be really nice for playing to yourself, but onstage I still think its best to hear what the audience is hearing if at all possible...

Well it's still FRFR so in theory you should be hearing what the audience hears. No FRFR is going to completely match what the audience hears though, because they're all different.

The closest match is probably if your current monitor matches the PA system you always use.

But then the audience are hearing your guitar in the mix, from the same sound source which is going to be a completely different listening experience than your guitar on its own coming out of a monitor on stage with you.

In my opinion I just don't see what you said to be correct, but I haven't heard this atomic axe-fx speaker thing.

 

[Brian G]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

Like everyone here, I've been following this with great interest. I have a QSC, and I also use a 2-12 tube combo amp where I EQ out the gross frequency response peaks & valleys, so that I can then use it with the cab sims. Works pretty well.

I'm hearing some generalizations here that aren't necessarily correct:

1. Tubes necessarily color frequency response: while tubes are used this way in most guitar amps, tube amps are still used by some today for reproduction systems that far exceed anything that will ever be made for the guitar world in terms of neutrality and sound quality, so it can be done, the question is can it be done at this price level - don't see why not, within reason.

2. Because something is solid-state, and FRFR, implies that it sounds good. Most of the amplification technologies used in the MI market use switching power supplies, relatively low-end output devices, and many powered monitors used DSP-based "help". These make products light-weight, affordably priced, lower in heat-dissipation requirements, and often smaller in size that they might otherwise be. Do these things make for superior sound quality? Not a chance.

Both tube and SS can be made to be good sounding. Tube circuits potentially eliminate all this digital switching "cost-effective" c**p. (Try taking a $3000 Bryston amp, that weighs 50 lbs. and 5 rack spaces, and using it in place of that $300 xyz, with a truly good monitor, and then try to go back!)

To me, the real crux of the matter is this: there is a fundamental difference between sound PRODUCTION and sound REPRODUCTION. I've always thought of the Axe as a fantastic tool that needs the best REPRODUCTION system possible. Legacy guitar amps are production devices - they're appreciated (and sometimes despised) for their non-linearities.

The QSC's aren't perfect by any stretch, it's just that they're better than most of the powered PA stuff out there (I rented a couple of other things that were **gross**!)

Hopefully the Atomic FRFR is faithful to the input signal, and doesn't in and of itself "sweeten" anything. I think that's what some people are concerned about. I'm eager to hear it.

BUT - having to rebias with each tube change? Please, no!

 

[Scott Peterson]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

I hate jumping into these sort of speculative threads.

But....

....has no one here ever been exposed to high end audiophile gear? And what is at the top of the most pristine and transparent, yes... transparent and musical power amplification?

Tubes.

All this 'assumption' about the 'color' of tubes (actually properly called "timbre" FWIW) is a red herring. Quick, knee-jerk guitarist-speak for at first, solid state 'sucks and then 'digital sucks'.

What the power amp uses as an amplification factor, tubes, solid state or digital switching amp designs, is less relevant than the way that the gain staging is set up and the actual circuit design and build. Atomic's Harry Kolbe tube amp design is small and light. I've pulled more than one Atomic power amp apart and biased/changed the tubes. Even the two 6L6 model is dinky and light. The 6L6 tubes are not pushed that hard; and used in the proper context are actually quite transparent; please do some research on the higher end audiophile power amps out there and see what I am talking about. I'm not talking out of my rear on this.... really.

So, point of fact, let's please not get too carried away with grandiose sweeping statements of small intellect. Please, not here. Pretty please?

Let's all take some of the same medicine we dish out about the Axe-FX on a very regular basis to skeptics: don't form your opinion until you have tried it.
Peace.

 

[Mike Snider]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

don't form your opinion until you have tried it.
Peace.

Thats all I'm sayin'

 

[Rico]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

I first have to say Scot I do agree with the basic point your making, you are right, But (and first let me just say I love tubes) I have loads of Tube gear, two of my very favorite Vocal Microphone's have tubes in, in fact one of them has two tubes in, I have a very hi quality Mic pre amp and a tube EQ and a couple of Comp's, I do love tubes, But are they the most transparent? I don't believe they are, they are capable of great transparency but they would need to be very expensive to achieve that, and even then I'm not sure, I could be wrong tho, I just have never heard it.

My personal experience is that Tubes usually add something, usually something nice, the thing I would love to see is being able to achieve that pleasant musical sound without tubes, I believe the Axe-Fx comes really incredibly close to achieving this, so close that it almost doesn't matter anymore, so I was surprised to see Tubes in this new box, it is without doubt put in there to enhance the sound or playability in some way, now the question I ask is why are we not able to get that sound or playability without tubes, or can we? if not then what part of the chain is lacking? other non tube amps or the Axe-Fx itself?

Please don't read this the wrong way I am happy this is coming out and I think it will be great, I don't really care if it has tubes or not, its just that recently I have begun to think that tubes are no longer needed to get that great guitar sound, and this has me wondering if I may have been wrong, and if so and the Axe-Fx will sound better through this new cab with tubes, then how do I give that same "Better" sound to my audience, which is my eternal goal, altho I have to say the sound I have been getting thru non tube amps live has been very satisfying, I am always up for better tho, that’s why I just brought a new Bricasti M7 reverb that’s another story tho.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

I'm going to state some well-established facts here, in the hope that some of the misunderstanding can be cleared up.

Both tube and ss power amplifiers can be engineered to provide clean, transparent sound. Quite a bit of blind A/B/X testing has been done on different types of power amplifiers, and the alleged ability to hear differences often turns out to be largely imagined. Here's a link to one set of tests: http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_pwr.htm.

Poorly-designed and/or poorly-manufactured power amplifiers have audible deficiencies. These deficiencies are entirely unrelated to the choice of active gain devices.

Tubes, in particular power tubes, are wear items. Independent of everything else, this is a substantial downside of tube amplifiers.

For a given amount of clean headroom, a tube amplifier will almost always be heavier and cost more than its ss counterpart. The need for output transformers in tube amplifiers is a substantial contributor to both cost and weight. Combined with the above, the attraction of ss devices for amplification should be clear.

DSP is almost never used to "fix" the amplifier sound in powered speakers. It is instead used to provide equalization and/or crossover filtering for the transducers. This is intrinsically neither good nor bad. In amplifiers with DSP filtering, the added latency and potential sonic degradation due to an added set of A/D and D/A conversions in the signal chain may or may not be a problem. Eliminating the potential problems costs money.

No electrical filtering - passive, analog active, or DSP-based - can correct for poor choice of geometry in a loudspeaker design.

Most loudspeaker designs employ poor choices of geometry.

 

[Brian G]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

DSP is almost never used to "fix" the amplifier sound in powered speakers. It is instead used to provide equalization and/or crossover filtering for the transducers. This is intrinsically neither good nor bad. In amplifiers with DSP filtering, the added latency and potential sonic degradation due to an added set of A/D and D/A conversions in the signal chain may or may not be a problem. Eliminating the potential problems costs money.

I realize this, and I apologize if I over-generalized. That "costs money" bit is pretty significant.

 

[dongrosh]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

Tom, can you explain the difference between the current Atomics 6L6 and the new AFRFR besides the horn...when you compare them side by side - what will i hear/feel....

wilfried

 

[ryanformato]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

Can someone explain what the difference would be between getting the atomic reactor FR or in getting myself a tube power amp (like a mesa 20/20 or 50/50) and then using my current 2x12 / 4x12 cabinet? I understand the atomic reactor is 1x12, but it uses a speaker with a cabinet around it...What makes it FRFR?

 

[steveb]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

Can someone explain what the difference would be between getting the atomic reactor FR or in getting myself a tube power amp (like a mesa 20/20 or 50/50) and then using my current 2x12 / 4x12 cabinet? I understand the atomic reactor is 1x12, but it uses a speaker with a cabinet around it...What makes it FRFR?

the Reactor FR has a tweeter in it as well and the speaker system is designed to be flat, and presumably the power section is designed to be much more transparent than the Mesa's. In other words, you should be able to run cab sims on with it and it sounds like that is the way they were demo'ing it.

 

[Tom King]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

Tom, can you explain the difference between the current Atomics 6L6 and the new AFRFR besides the horn...when you compare them side by side - what will i hear/feel....

wilfried

The Reactor FR was designed to work for truly FRFR applications like keyboard, vocals, backing tracks, etc. in addition to guitar, while the Reactor 112-50 was designed with mostly guitar in mind. The response of the ARFR will be more linear overall since the crossover point between the tweeter and woofer is before where the high end of the woofer would start to go non linear.

The Reactor FR incorporates an L pad control that lets you tune the system to the room or dial out top end when it might be undesirable. Because the top end of the Axe-Fx is so natural, you will notice that when the tweeter is adjusted for "flat" response you'll get an organic amp sound that will also pick up the shimmer effects and synth sounds that would normally sound dull or non-existent through a typical guitar speaker system.

The electronics have been slightly modified to suite the application but their feel will retain the same immediacy of the Reactor 112-50s power section (or however you have the Axe-Fx's power amp simulation set up to feel like).

 

[dongrosh]

Re: Announcement: Atomic Reactor FR

Hi Tom, thx for clarify...

Topend is not the same like what i call punch - and that was it what i missed on the 112-50 in comparison to my Thiele 1x12 EV from MB/poweramp. The same with a lot of FR-systems (JBL, QSC). It was not "under one´s belt?!" when you understand what i mean - it sounds good but it sounds or better feels alike it feels when i mike an 4x12 in an other room and hear myself with the FOH - difficult for me to explain in english - i missed the direct punch....that´s why i decided to play with an Tubepoweramp and two 1x12 Boggie Thiele EV12L without the speakersims......
I really would like to have that more options using the speakersims but not for the price of loosing the real Amp-Feeling....

i have to try oit for sure.....