"Amp in the room" - Why?

[Mesaholic]

I'm not trying to start a flame-fest. I see so many posts about this and am trying to figure out what it is they/you are actually looking for and why this is so important to some players. The overwhelming majority of guitar tones we hear each day are mic'd up and processed, and we are players. The average non-musician hears only processed tones, unless they go to a live show where they are (for some reason), hearing some portion of stage volume. So, what's the deal?

 

[GM Arts]

I guess that's where most players listen when they're dialling in their ultimate tones. Any further processing (mics and their reproduction gear) cannot exactly or fully capture that tone.

I don't see this any differently than attempts to capture the sound of any other acoustic instrument (violin, acoustic guitar, drum kit or whatever). Even the best recording techniques and experts rarely capture the in-the-room sound. IMHO, only part of this limitation is due to the typical restriction of replaying through only 2 speaker sources.

 

[aleclee]

Probably because while our benchmark tones are all recorded, most of our personal experience with guitar tones comes uncolored by a mic. Personally, I find the "amp in room" tone to be somewhat more visceral than when miked, even with clean tones. As with many things involving guitarists, it's about what we're used to and we're not used to hearing miked tones coming straight out of our rigs.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

I'm not trying to start a flame-fest. I see so many posts about this and am trying to figure out what it is they/you are actually looking for and why this is so important to some players.

It's not at all difficult to understand. Most Axe-Fx users are accustomed to playing conventional amps. They are happy with the way those amps sound, and more importantly, feel, and they would like their Axe-Fx rig to produce the same results.

The overwhelming majority of guitar tones we hear each day are mic'd up and processed, and we are players.

Widespread adoption of a paradigm does not constitute a valid argument that it is the best one for a given individual.

So, what's the deal?

Why do you care?

 

[Mesaholic]

I guess that's where most players listen when they're dialling in their ultimate tones. Any further processing (mics and their reproduction gear) cannot exactly or fully capture that tone.

I don't see this any differently than attempts to capture the sound of any other acoustic instrument (violin, acoustic guitar, drum kit or whatever). Even the best recording techniques and experts rarely capture the in-the-room sound. IMHO, only part of this limitation is due to the typical restriction of replaying through only 2 speaker sources.

OK, I agree with everything you've said although I understand the context of the other instruments you cite to be capturing those instruments in their natural/un-amplified form through the use of a microphone and preamp, i.e. not run direct into an amp or board.

An electric guitar (unless plugged direct into a board) must be amplified and then (in some cases) the amplification itself is run through preamps and perhaps other processing to a p.a. or recorder. So, is the AITR (amp in the room) approach most conducive then to the player whose is accustomed to playing in environments where their amp is not mic'd? Is it equally applicable to a player who prefers to amplify through their own system and mic that system? Is it applicable to someone who runs direct? Finally, beyond capturing what I am assuming is a more "raw" or "organic" sound, is there some perceived difference in the feel of how the amp responds?

 

[electronpirate]

It's not at all difficult to understand. Most Axe-Fx users are accustomed to playing conventional amps. They are happy with the way those amps sound, and more importantly, feel, and they would like their Axe-Fx rig to produce the same results.

Yup.

And the 'immediacy' factor you can get with a poweramp and cab. I just doesn't come 'out of the box' FRFR (or I have not been able to get it perfectly one way or another.) I hold hope for the Fratomic.

On the other hand, we have lost one or 2 that have plugged back into their amps, found that 'in the room' feel, and went back to it. Why they didn't do a 4 cable method or some such, I don't understand, but there's beauty in variety.

 

[Mesaholic]

Probably because while our benchmark tones are all recorded, most of our personal experience with guitar tones comes uncolored by a mic. Personally, I find the "amp in room" tone to be somewhat more visceral than when miked, even with clean tones. As with many things involving guitarists, it's about what we're used to and we're not used to hearing miked tones coming straight out of our rigs.

So part of it is a "feel" thing for you? Please see my comments above. Do you use the AITR technique in conjunction with a mic'd speaker cab or run direct to the board/recorder?

 

[Mesaholic]

I'm not trying to start a flame-fest. I see so many posts about this and am trying to figure out what it is they/you are actually looking for and why this is so important to some players.

It's not at all difficult to understand. Most Axe-Fx users are accustomed to playing conventional amps. They are happy with the way those amps sound, and more importantly, feel, and they would like their Axe-Fx rig to produce the same results.

The overwhelming majority of guitar tones we hear each day are mic'd up and processed, and we are players.

Widespread adoption of a paradigm does not constitute a valid argument that it is the best one for a given individual.

[quote:13nryfj1]So, what's the deal?

Why do you care? [/quote:13nryfj1]

Intellectual curiosity, Jay, and nothing more (I swear). I hear this discussed in bits and pieces (and sometimes not so peacefully) and I am trying to get a handle on it for myself. Believe me, I am not trying to stick with old paradigms - I have played decent tube amps for more years than I care to admit - and while my gigging days are over if they were to resume there is no doubt I would employ the Axe.

Again, I played very decent conventional amps for years, on medium to small stages. My experience was that you might have a 57 or 609 close mic'd to the amp and, for better or worse, that's what most of the crowd heard. So, the idea of sending a somewhat idealized signal which mimics to some degree a well-recorded version of the amp would seem to me to be preferable (conceding this is the starting point for my analysis and others certainly will have different experiences, tastes and opinions).

 

[Mesaholic]

It's not at all difficult to understand. Most Axe-Fx users are accustomed to playing conventional amps. They are happy with the way those amps sound, and more importantly, feel, and they would like their Axe-Fx rig to produce the same results.

Yup.

And the 'immediacy' factor you can get with a poweramp and cab. I just doesn't come 'out of the box' FRFR (or I have not been able to get it perfectly one way or another.) I hold hope for the Fratomic.

On the other hand, we have lost one or 2 that have plugged back into their amps, found that 'in the room' feel, and went back to it. Why they didn't do a 4 cable method or some such, I don't understand, but there's beauty in variety.

Seeing Jay's post with yours, I now have it through my thick skull that feel is a part of this technique. It's really great that this box is so adaptable and versatile.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

My experience was that you might have a 57 or 609 close mic'd to the amp and, for better or worse, that's what most of the crowd heard. So, the idea of sending a somewhat idealized signal which mimics to some degree a well-recorded version of the amp would seem to me to be preferable

In your situation, unless you relied on your sound in the monitors for most of your stage volume, the audience heard a substantially different guitar sound than you did.

What is preferable to me is a rig that sounds exactly as I want it to sound - "amp in the room," and I have no trouble achieving that - and then to transmit a signal that contains that exact sound in electronic form (no mic involved) directly to FOH or the recording desk. For me, that's a far superior approach: I hear the sound I want to hear, and the audience hears a very similar, if not identical sound, depending on the FOH PA and operator.

 

[Mesaholic]

My experience was that you might have a 57 or 609 close mic'd to the amp and, for better or worse, that's what most of the crowd heard. So, the idea of sending a somewhat idealized signal which mimics to some degree a well-recorded version of the amp would seem to me to be preferable

In your situation, unless you relied on your sound in the monitors for most of your stage volume, the audience heard a substantially different guitar sound than you did.

What is preferable to me is a rig that sounds exactly as I want it to sound - "amp in the room," and I have no trouble achieving that - and then to transmit a signal that contains that exact sound in electronic form (no mic involved) directly to FOH or the recording desk. For me, that's a far superior approach: I hear the sound I want to hear, and the audience hears a very similar, if not identical sound, depending on the FOH PA and operator.

It most likely would have been some combination of the amp and the mains (and to a lesser extent perhaps the monitors until we went IEM) depending on the size of the venue.

So, is AITR created merely through the use of a "far-range" IR or are there other techniques involved? What distance have you found to be a good range to achieve the sound?

 

[aleclee]

So part of it is a "feel" thing for you? Please see my comments above. Do you use the AITR technique in conjunction with a mic'd speaker cab or run direct to the board/recorder?

Feel? Not really--when I think "feel" it relates more to the effect of the Axe's Sag Control--the best word I can use to describe what I like about AITR is "immediacy". It's quite simply a preference for having my rig sound like a conventional rig rather than a recording of a conventional rig.

I'd run AITR direct to FOH 'cause I think that's an important part of a band sounding "live" as opposed to sounding like a CD being played back. For recording, I'd do whatever worked for the mix.

 

[megalowmatt]

Are there any specific IR's that work best for the amp in the room technique? If so, I am guessing that the mic should be set to "none"(?).

Thank you,

matt

 

[paulmapp8306]

Why? because 95% of gigs I play, the band is un-mic'd. Unofrtunately in the UK most venues are pubs, small rooms in clubs etc - where most bands are un-micd. The vocals and keys (maybe a kick drum) are the only things going through the mains. Because of that the band, the audiences and myself are used to - and want - a real amp sound.

For recording I need thoses "benchmark" sounds and sounds like then. The axe does this direct.

For the odd occasion I do mic up, I totally agree with Jay - that I want to hear a great sound - and for the audience to hear that too. Thing is I havent yet heard a FRFR system (reasonably priced) that makes the axe sound "in the room" which Is my main concern (as its my most needed sound). I can use my "recording" sounds if I DO need to go FOH for now - which are still better without tweeking than actually micing up an amp, and use my - admittedly poor - monitor for thoses gigs.

Id like the versatility to use different cabs to make my sounds better in some contexts - BUT - as we are all used to using amps - and most of us just one at a time I susspect - even going the amp/cab route with the axe gives me more flexibility than a traditional amp/cab so Im happy.

Now if there is an affordably (for me thats around £500 realistically - thought the Atomic at £700 is do-able with a little saving and wife appeasment) solution out there now - or soon to be (hopefully the Atomic) that will sound like a real amp in room - and take that sound to FOH then Ill be all over it.

 

[Stringtheorist]

Now if there is an affordably (for me thats around £500 realistically - thought the Atomic at £700 is do-able with a little saving and wife appeasment) solution out there now - or soon to be (hopefully the Atomic) that will sound like a real amp in room - and take that sound to FOH then Ill be all over it.

+1

 

[ethomas1013]

For recording direct, the ability to add a room mic to the close mic tone would be amazing. To me, that's the biggest use for a room mic simulation.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

So, is AITR created merely through the use of a "far-range" IR or are there other techniques involved?

I can't state a simple formula that will work equally well for everyone, but several elements must be present: a speaker IR that accurately captures the sound of the speaker as you would hear it while playing, amp block settings that create the sound and feel of the desired amp, and an accurate FRFR monitor with enough output capability to sound realistic.

 

[Gytaxor]

I guess it depends on what you are used to. I grew up on effects processors because I thought that is "it". And I could never afford a decent amp and I could never play at loud volumes. So when POD came, I was all about it . Since then I started going direct and got pretty decent results even with PODXTL. Now I have Boss Gt 10. I would love to get AXE, but it is still out of my price range, so I have to get by with what I have. And yes I know that the "feel" is not the same, but I guess I am not as picky (no offense to anyone - I guess I just don't see the difference when playing through a tube amp vs. going direct with my GT10 as huge and important as to be really bothered by that).

That's how I feel about it

 

[Jay Mitchell]

I guess it depends on what you are used to.

Of course. Calibration is everything. I'll add that good players can recalibrate as required. I prefer the feel of playing through an amp in the same acoustic space as my ears, but I don't have to have that feel in order to perform. I have in the distant past played through a DI into the recording console using the monitors in the control room, as well as relied on floor wedges for my stage volume. Every situation is unique, and it behooves a conscientious player to cultivate the ability to adapt. No situation is ever perfect. IMO, dealing with the inevitable imperfections is what separates players from whiners.

Having said that, I'll say that the Axe-Fx gives anyone who wants it the option of creating the feel and sound of an amp right next to you. Just as with learning to play the instrument, acquiring the skillset you will need to accomplish this may take some work, but the result is definitely achievable.

And yes I know that the "feel" is not the same,

FWIW, I've played through stage rigs that used a conventional guitar amp that felt every bit as "distant" as playing through a cheap modeler direct to the PA can feel. The "amp in the room" feel thing is not a given, even when you're actually playing through one.

 

[diggi]

I like pizza. But I prefer (after many, many years of pizza consumption) a little-tiny- bit of red pepper flake on my pizza as well.

It just tastes better to me that way -




~ J