"Amp in the room" - Why?

[electronpirate]

These are done using the Red Wirez ( http://www.redwirez.com ) IR's. Converted to sysex files via AlbertA's utility and loaded into the Axe-FX with the beta editor.

Here are some more tones:

Fender Deluxe: http://www.mediafire.com/?mlknpt5jxjx

Vox AC30: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?k3mc1n7tti0

Marshall JCM 800: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zmw2djzzfuh

These IR's - combined with the Axe-FX - deliver on the goods. I am in freaking heaven right now.

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IMHO, IR's of this quality sort of level the playing field to the topic at hand. The whole 'recorded direct via close mic'ing' versus 'amp in the room' is rendered useless with the right IR's.

Certain members here have held that out as truth over the years; but not too many could do the level of IR themselves. This package I just got into this week (tipped off here on this board and hipped to these guys) makes this 'debate' sorta moot.

IMHO, YMMV.

Okay, reading this post sort of confirms everything people have said about the default IR's. And myself. For the most part, they are not widely used. To get the tones that I've heard, almost to a 't' everyone sais 'Custom IR'. That points to a deficiency in the Axe. I personally have only found one or 2 cabs that I've been able to get along with, and it's usually because I have to hammer it with a MIC to EQ it to where I like.

It bums me out that I would have to pay Red Wirez to get a few decent IR's. I'm sure there are a few decent Clawfinger one's in there too, but auditioning the (seemingly) thousands he has out there makes me turn off my computer and just play with what I have.

Say what you want, but it's the Axe-FX's most glaring weakness.

IMO.

Ron

 

[Scott Peterson]

These are done using the Red Wirez ( http://www.redwirez.com ) IR's.

Right. But which ones?

Which patch? Different for each one. I spent the hours to find the combination that worked for me.

I used the following: Marshall uses the Marshall G12M KM84 Stereo Room and Marshall G12M KM84 Room Royer 121 6" Cone. Fender Deluxe uses the Tweed Deluxe Blues KM84 Stereo Room and Tweed Blues Royer 121 6" cone. Bogner uses Marshall V30 room and Royer 121 6" off the cone. And the Vox uses the Vox stereo room and Royer 121 6" from the cone.

I took the 48K 24bit wavs and converted them using AlbertA's utility. I dropped them in a stereo cab block, everything panned to center and all settings at zero.

I tried many many many combinations and found the ones that worked for me. YMMV.

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As for the topic, IR's are deeply important to the Axe-FX. Cliff's stock IR's are the baseline, but he opened up the capability to run 10 slots of user IR's. That is a very powerful variable for owners to have.

With the Axe-FX being part of a new emerging level of digital; the IR's out there are also evolving as we go. There's no 'deficiency' in the stock IR's; it's a subjective taste issue. For a more 'in the room' feel and tone, it's simply logic that if you are using FRFR, you'd need IR's from.... further out in the room. That's NOT how most guitars are recorded and you cannot fault or mock the choice to include close mic'd IR's with the Axe-FX. That's how it's been done since day one when the first guitar amp was recorded in the first studio.

What is happening is a evolution in real time right in front of our eyes and the Axe-FX is right on the cusp of that wave. There is no more reason now to debate 'in the room' vs. 'close mic'd/direct recording' tone.

It's all in the IR's you choose. What other hardware based company offers you that option/power? A: none. Fractal stands alone. And it's a powerful thing that we can create these tones down to the nth level so individually.

It's not a 'weakness' of the Axe-FX. It's an opportunity to create your OWN tones and control them like never before.

 

[voes]

http://www.redwirez.com[/url] ) IR's.

Right. But which ones?

Which patch? Different for each one. I spent the hours to find the combination that worked for me.

I used the following: Marshall uses the Marshall G12M KM84 Stereo Room and Marshall G12M KM84 Room Royer 121 6" Cone. Fender Deluxe uses the Tweed Deluxe Blues KM84 Stereo Room and Tweed Blues Royer 121 6" cone. Bogner uses Marshall V30 room and Royer 121 6" off the cone. And the Vox uses the Vox stereo room and Royer 121 6" from the cone.

I took the 48K 24bit wavs and converted them using AlbertA's utility. I dropped them in a stereo cab block, everything panned to center and all settings at zero.

I tried many many many combinations and found the ones that worked for me. YMMV.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the topic, IR's are deeply important to the Axe-FX. Cliff's stock IR's are the baseline, but he opened up the capability to run 10 slots of user IR's. That is a very powerful variable for owners to have.

With the Axe-FX being part of a new emerging level of digital; the IR's out there are also evolving as we go. There's no 'deficiency' in the stock IR's; it's a subjective taste issue. For a more 'in the room' feel and tone, it's simply logic that if you are using FRFR, you'd need IR's from.... further out in the room. That's NOT how most guitars are recorded and you cannot fault or mock the choice to include close mic'd IR's with the Axe-FX. That's how it's been done since day one when the first guitar amp was recorded in the first studio.

What is happening is a evolution in real time right in front of our eyes and the Axe-FX is right on the cusp of that wave. There is no more reason now to debate 'in the room' vs. 'close mic'd/direct recording' tone.

It's all in the IR's you choose. What other hardware based company offers you that option/power? A: none. Fractal stands alone. And it's a powerful thing that we can create these tones down to the nth level so individually.

It's not a 'weakness' of the Axe-FX. It's an opportunity to create your OWN tones and control them like never before.[/quote:3oknof49]

Thanks for the tip Scott!!
Gonna try these out once my Ultra is back home

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Say what you want, but it's the Axe-FX's most glaring weakness.

I claim precisely the opposite. I only bought an Axe-Fx once Cliff had made it clear that user IRs slots would be made available, and I've only used my own IRs - which I have shared freely with others - since 4.00 beta firmware became available.

Once you can roll your own, the quality of "storeboughts" ceases to be a limitation.

 

[electronpirate]

Say what you want, but it's the Axe-FX's most glaring weakness.

I claim precisely the opposite. I only bought an Axe-Fx once Cliff had made it clear that user IRs slots would be made available, and I've only used my own IRs - which I have shared freely with others - since 4.00 beta firmware became available.

Once you can roll your own, the quality of "storeboughts" ceases to be a limitation.

You're missing the point Jay.

It's not about the fact that you can use you're own IR's, which is great. (I won't even go into 'rolling you're own', because that is beyond the scope of most guitar players...the argument that you SHOULD do that only goes to prove my point.) It's ALL about that over the last few years, I've read post after post of people who don't find any but a few of the factory installed cabs usable. There are whole threads devoted to it, and plenty where people are searching for the proper AMP-CAB combination to achieve a particular sound.

I, for one, seem to (for the most part) end up on the Brit 4x12 cab. Sure, there's some preference for that sound, but I play everything from Lyle Lovett to Eddie Money to Disturbed and Default.

It's just my opinion, but I find I can't use 80% of those cabs. The fact that there is such a huge IR demand out there supports the argument that the factory cabs don't get it done.

Again. IMO.

Ron

 

[javajunkie]

Say what you want, but it's the Axe-FX's most glaring weakness.

I claim precisely the opposite. I only bought an Axe-Fx once Cliff had made it clear that user IRs slots would be made available, and I've only used my own IRs - which I have shared freely with others - since 4.00 beta firmware became available.

Once you can roll your own, the quality of "storeboughts" ceases to be a limitation.

You're missing the point Jay.

It's not about the fact that you can use you're own IR's, which is great. (I won't even go into 'rolling you're own', because that is beyond the scope of most guitar players...the argument that you SHOULD do that only goes to prove my point.) It's ALL about that over the last few years, I've read post after post of people who don't find any but a few of the factory installed cabs usable. There are whole threads devoted to it, and plenty where people are searching for the proper AMP-CAB combination to achieve a particular sound.

I, for one, seem to (for the most part) end up on the Brit 4x12 cab. Sure, there's some preference for that sound, but I play everything from Lyle Lovett to Eddie Money to Disturbed and Default.

It's just my opinion, but I find I can't use 80% of those cabs. The fact that there is such a huge IR demand out there supports the argument that the factory cabs don't get it done.

Again. IMO.

Ron

Different people like/dislke different cab sims. I don't like the new ones, other's love them, some like the brit 4x12, others don't, it goes on and on.
Yes you can't use 80% of the cabs, but others are using some of those 80% and probably can't find a use for the cabs you use.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

It's ALL about that over the last few years, I've read post after post of people who don't find any but a few of the factory installed cabs usable.

And? I only find a very few of the "factory installed" amps usable. I don't see that as a problem. It would be a problem, however, if I couldn't use any of them, because I have no "user" option there. OTOH, the fact that I've never used a factory cab sim is not a problem, because I have the option of uploading IRs created either by myself or by others.

I, for one, seem to (for the most part) end up on the Brit 4x12 cab.

So, what's your problem, then?

It's just my opinion, but I find I can't use 80% of those cabs.

See above. The percentage of the factory amp sims I can't use is higher than 80. Doesn't bother me in the slightest, and it simply means that, in accommodating a very wide range of tastes, the axe offers far more options than any single user is ever likely to use.

 

[jerotas]

I have no idea what you guys are arguing about. Doesn't sound like Jay missed the point at all...user IR's = Rox0r! If we don't like most/all of the factory IR's, so what! We can find / make our own. Nobody gets hurt!

 

[paulmapp8306]

Ummm, I actually think that there IS an ommissiom with Cabs in the Axe, and heres why.

1. I know the Axe wasnt intended to sound like and amp, but a mic'd amp originally. However with so many people actually after that sound - and with the acknowledgment its possible with the correct far IRs, I feel some should be included as stock. It cant be hard to add 3 or 4 (say a 1x12, a 2x12 and a couple of 4x12s) in a firmware update.

2. Yes you CAN make your own IRs, but I for one - even after reading the "how to" still havent got a clue. And I dont have reference mics (im not a pro !! Im an amateur) AND I only have 1 cab even if I could create my own IR.

3. Even though there are some 3rd party IRs out there, I still am not sure where, or how to convert them to axe friendly ones, or how to laod them in the axe. OK I should know, and could do some work to achieve that - BUT - if there was a small selection in the Axe, those who wanted the Amp in room sound would have some to try. Maybe not quite what they want - so they look for others - BUT it will show you if the axe can/cant achieve the "in room" sound you want.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

1. I know the Axe wasnt intended to sound like and amp, but a mic'd amp originally.

And just how do you "know" that? Since I began participating in the forum more than 2 years ago, I've seen the assertion from a couple users, but I've not once seen anything from Cliff to that effect. If you have seen such a statement from him, I'd really appreciate a link.

However with so many people actually after that sound - and with the acknowledgment its possible with the correct far IRs, I feel some should be included as stock.

Some - precisely, three - are "included as stock." You're welcome.

It cant be hard to add 3 or 4 (say a 1x12, a 2x12 and a couple of 4x12s) in a firmware update.

It wasn't hard at all, and it was done quite a few months back. Apparently it escaped your notice.

 

[javajunkie]

1. I know the Axe wasnt intended to sound like and amp, but a mic'd amp originally.

And just how do you "know" that? Since I began participating in the forum more than 2 years ago, I've seen the assertion from a couple users, but I've not once seen anything from Cliff to that effect. If you have seen such a statement from him, I'd really appreciate a link.

However with so many people actually after that sound - and with the acknowledgment its possible with the correct far IRs, I feel some should be included as stock.

Some - precisely, three - are "included as stock." You're welcome.

[quote:18dsted1]It cant be hard to add 3 or 4 (say a 1x12, a 2x12 and a couple of 4x12s) in a firmware update.

It wasn't hard at all, and it was done quite a few months back. Apparently it escaped your notice.[/quote:18dsted1]

I'll try and find the link but Cliff has said that. I should say that he stated the the cab blocks were intended to sound as I mic'ed cab (not amp). This is blostered by the fact that the original cab were all close mic'ed and there was no "none" mic.


But like you said some, thanks Jay, were already added.

 

[jerotas]

Which built-in IR's came from Jay? I didn't know there were farfield IR's stock in the Axe either :twisted:

 

[jerotas]

Ummm, I actually think that there IS an ommissiom with Cabs in the Axe, and heres why.
3. Even though there are some 3rd party IRs out there, I still am not sure where, or how to convert them to axe friendly ones, or how to laod them in the axe. OK I should know, and could do some work to achieve that - BUT - if there was a small selection in the Axe, those who wanted the Amp in room sound would have some to try. Maybe not quite what they want - so they look for others - BUT it will show you if the axe can/cant achieve the "in room" sound you want.

If you buy the new Red Wire ones (there's a new 29-page thread on the Cabs forum), Cliff has already converted them to Axe IR's. To load them into the Axe, I still use the old Axe-Fx Editor. You just point it to a folder where your IR's are, then drag an IR over to one of the 10 user slots on the left. It automatically updated the Axe-Fx through midi after a couple seconds. Couldn't be simpler. Then you can cycle through the user IR's on the Axe-Fx itself while playing.

Or if you don't have $80 to buy the Red Wire IR's (they are very good), go download some IR's from that forum that are free. There are good free ones too.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Which built-in IR's came from Jay? I didn't know there were farfield IR's stock in the Axe either :twisted:

The 2x12 Gold and 2x12 G12H are definitely mine. They are acknowledged as such in the current Ultra manual. The current Standard manual is out of date with respect to cabs. I'm pretty sure the 1x12 Open is also mine, although it is not acknowledged as coming from me.

 

[electronpirate]

It's ALL about that over the last few years, I've read post after post of people who don't find any but a few of the factory installed cabs usable.

And? I only find a very few of the "factory installed" amps usable. I don't see that as a problem. It would be a problem, however, if I couldn't use any of them, because I have no "user" option there. OTOH, the fact that I've never used a factory cab sim is not a problem, because I have the option of uploading IRs created either by myself or by others.

I, for one, seem to (for the most part) end up on the Brit 4x12 cab.

So, what's your problem, then?

[quote:x6sn6cip]It's just my opinion, but I find I can't use 80% of those cabs.

See above. The percentage of the factory amp sims I can't use is higher than 80. Doesn't bother me in the slightest, and it simply means that, in accommodating a very wide range of tastes, the axe offers far more options than any single user is ever likely to use.[/quote:x6sn6cip]

Criminy, you don't quit, do you.

Again, the POINT is that EVEN IF THERE ARE OPTIONS (like IR's), the installed cabs are not widely used. Even my me who plays such a wide range of music that you'd think I would avail myself of more of them. Would you use the same argument if everyone felt like there are only 3 usable AMPS in the Axe-FX?

And to reiterate, my problem is that we have a majority of cabs that I (and others) can't use. In some cases they don't sound like what I associate (based off of recordings) them with. Never mind that I found ONE that I could use consistently...in which you somehow seem to feel like I should be grateful.

Again, this is MY OPINION. It comes back to my whole argument that this should be more 'plug and play'. Something that I know rankles. That is not my problem. It's my opinion that there would be even more converts who relish quick, simple results, but are able to dig deeper as time goes on.

If you don't agree with the argument, that doesn't make it wrong.

Ron

 

[Mesaholic]

Guys, the discussion on the merits of the internal IR's is getting a little OT..

Besides...it's Friday! :lol:

 

[jerotas]

Again, this is MY OPINION. It comes back to my whole argument that this should be more 'plug and play'. Something that I know rankles. That is not my problem. It's my opinion that there would be even more converts who relish quick, simple results, but are able to dig deeper as time goes on.

Ron

Ron,

what is your idea to make it more plug and play? Or do you have one? I don't really see how a product like this can be plug and play, but that may just be me.

 

[electronpirate]

Again, this is MY OPINION. It comes back to my whole argument that this should be more 'plug and play'. Something that I know rankles. That is not my problem. It's my opinion that there would be even more converts who relish quick, simple results, but are able to dig deeper as time goes on.

Ron

Ron,

what is your idea to make it more plug and play? Or do you have one? I don't really see how a product like this can be plug and play, but that may just be me.

PM me and we'll take it offline...we're already WAY OT here, and we've distracted enough.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Criminy, you don't quit, do you.

Last I checked, it took two to tango. :lol:

Again, the POINT is that EVEN IF THERE ARE OPTIONS (like IR's), the installed cabs are not widely used.

I believe you are completely mistaken here. I would wager that the majority of Axe-Fx users have never uploaded a custom IR and instead use the factory ones. We're both speculating, of course.

Would you use the same argument if everyone felt like there are only 3 usable AMPS in the Axe-FX?

Yes, because we would not all use the same 3 amps. This is what you're missing.

If you don't agree with the argument, that doesn't make it wrong.

Well, I still get to counter it if I believe it mistaken. And I do.

 

[megalowmatt]

So who moderates the moderators?

So to revive a question I asked earlier, what is/are the best ir's to use for the "amp in the room" feel? I am imagining they are speakers captured without their traditional respective cabinets(?).

Thanks!

matt