50 watts vs 1000 watts

Sorenspete

Sorenspete

Inspired
Hi folks,

After years of close shaves I've succumbed and will be selling my tube amp setup and buying an Axe-Fx III. I use a 100w head into a 2x12 and I like 100w heads for their headroom. I've been having run-ins with friends about this and they trot out the classic "you don't need 100 watts, just get a 50" line.

At first this was a question of 50 watts versus 100 watts, but now I'm seeing a lot of guys use the GT1000 stereo power amp from the folks at Matrix. Can you guys speak to whether I should use a 1000w power amp? I play in my humble studio at home but I intend to play live in the near future. Those GT1000's are 800 USD and Matrix sell direct and in my country's voltage, so it seems like a no-brainer. Would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Feel free to ask if I've left any info out.

Cheers,

Pete
 
The wattage needed depends on the speaker driven. Guitar speakers put out 100db at 1w in 1m distance, so 1 watt is already beyond bedroom volume.
Crank it up to 20w and it's enough for an average stage.
FRFR speakers usually have less, maybe around 95db at 1w. To even that out you need x times the power because the scale for volume is logarithmic. To get the same impression of a 20 watts driven guitar cab you might need 150 to 200 watts on an FRFR system instead.
Since it depends of the speakers you can't compare 200w on one system against 300w on the other. Could be that the 200w system is louder.
 
666was999 said:
The wattage needed depends on the speaker driven. Guitar speakers put out 100db at 1w in 1m distance, so 1 watt is already beyond bedroom volume.
Crank it up to 20w and it's enough for an average stage.
FRFR speakers usually have less, maybe around 95db at 1w. To even that out you need x times the power because the scale for volume is logarithmic. To get the same impression of a 20 watts driven guitar cab you might need 150 to 200 watts on an FRFR system instead.
Since it depends of the speakers you can't compare 200w on one system against 300w on the other. Could be that the 200w system is louder.
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Thanks for the info. I saw a video (yeah yeah I know) last night where a chap said something similar. I was thinking of running two MESA / Boogie Engineering Straight 4x12's.
 
Budda said:
Whats the return policy? Try it out with the setup and see if it works for you?
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Dude...I remember you from Sevenstring.org lol.

My country's Fractal dealer has a 15 day returns policy. You think I should just try it with my EVH cab? I'd prefer to run it in stereo.
 
Sorenspete said:
Hi folks,

After years of close shaves I've succumbed and will be selling my tube amp setup and buying an Axe-Fx III. I use a 100w head into a 2x12 and I like 100w heads for their headroom. I've been having run-ins with friends about this and they trot out the classic "you don't need 100 watts, just get a 50" line.

At first this was a question of 50 watts versus 100 watts, but now I'm seeing a lot of guys use the GT1000 stereo power amp from the folks at Matrix. Can you guys speak to whether I should use a 1000w power amp? I play in my humble studio at home but I intend to play live in the near future. Those GT1000's are 800 USD and Matrix sell direct and in my country's voltage, so it seems like a no-brainer. Would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Feel free to ask if I've left any info out.

Cheers,

Pete
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In addition to what said by others, doubling the power only brings 3 dB increase in sound pressure.
The only difference is headroom, which I don’t think is a real issue, unless Wembley is in your plans 😃
 
angelworm said:
In addition to what said by others, doubling the power only brings 3 dB increase in sound pressure.
The only difference is headroom, which I don’t think is a real issue, unless Winbley is in your plans 😃
Click to expand...
It's not really a loudness issue but a 'presence'/balls issue. I play high gain stuff, so having that depth/size of sound that you get from a 100w amp has always felt best to me. Even if I'm not playing an arena, my 100w Randall RM100 destroys those little lunchbox 5150's even before we hit practice volume. Not sure if what I'm saying makes sense. I'm no sound engineer, but it seems like the sound I chase tends to have a lot of headroom.
 
Sorenspete said:
Dude...I remember you from Sevenstring.org lol.

My country's Fractal dealer has a 15 day returns policy. You think I should just try it with my EVH cab? I'd prefer to run it in stereo.
Click to expand...

Still posting there too lol.

I dont mean return on fractal though, I mean return on a power amp.

You wont get stereo from your single evh cab either, you'd need a second cab (which works better for stereo spread, space them out).

With a traditional tube amp, the headroom affects how its going to sound. With a modeller, you're going to be getting that headroom feel from the device so you just want to make sure the power amp delivers the volume for your application. A 5w amp with a 412 rattles windows. 100w plus of clean power and you're probably fine. Speaker effiency matters too.

There's tons of power amp threads in the amp section here.
 
Sorenspete said:
Hi folks,

After years of close shaves I've succumbed and will be selling my tube amp setup and buying an Axe-Fx III. I use a 100w head into a 2x12 and I like 100w heads for their headroom. I've been having run-ins with friends about this and they trot out the classic "you don't need 100 watts, just get a 50" line.

At first this was a question of 50 watts versus 100 watts, but now I'm seeing a lot of guys use the GT1000 stereo power amp from the folks at Matrix. Can you guys speak to whether I should use a 1000w power amp? I play in my humble studio at home but I intend to play live in the near future. Those GT1000's are 800 USD and Matrix sell direct and in my country's voltage, so it seems like a no-brainer. Would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Feel free to ask if I've left any info out.

Cheers,

Pete
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2 years ago I played over a 20kW PA on a stage in a towncenter....it's absolutely amazing and what a kick to feel all that 'air'moving and reverberating back from the building faces....to have so much power (1kW) just in a band, bar or at home seems a bit overkill IMHO.
 
lauke-lux said:
2 years ago I played over a 20kW PA on a stage in a towncenter....it's absolutely amazing and what a kick to feel all that 'air'moving and reverberating back from the building faces....to have so much power (1kW) just in a band, bar or at home seems a bit overkill IMHO.
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You could have a 1M wattage power amp - you'd still set it for the volume you want.
 
Budda said:
With a traditional tube amp, the headroom affects how its going to sound. With a modeller, you're going to be getting that headroom feel from the device so you just want to make sure the power amp delivers the volume for your application. A 5w amp with a 412 rattles windows. 100w plus of clean power and you're probably fine. Speaker effiency matters too.
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This says it all. The sound and “feel” of the amp is coming from the modeler, and the power-amplifier is responsible for making it louder.

Yes, the volume contributes to the sound a little, but a 50W FRFR-type power-amp is going to be loud and sound good because the modeler is telling it to. The real volume the audience hears should come from the FOH system and from your modeler’s direct feed to it, not from your stage rig. You can add 1000 watts to your stage rig and turn it up but then you start to fight with the FOH system and engineer... which is never a good idea. Control of the stage volume is important and putting the volume in the right place is the trick. Eventually it’s too fricken’ loud on the stage and you can’t hear anything.

Also, don’t be too impressed by wattage numbers tossed out by companies unless they specify exactly how they arrived at the values. The industry tried to herd the “RMS vs. peak-power” and “RMS at full range vs. a specific frequency” and “.01% distortion vs. 1% distortion” cats and failed. Unless they use the same measuring metrics it’s really difficult to compare one brand to another.
 
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If you have a 1000w power amp and a 412, I'd suspect you're asking not to be mic'd/line out from the modeller if you plan to crank said 412.
 
I have the GT1000 and it has worked very well. I personally like having the extra power/headroom so that I am not driving the amp really hard, or near its rated max, when I want more volume. I also really like that the GT1000 can handle various speaker impedances and adjusts itself automatically to the load - no need to set anything so you just connect any cabinet and power it up.

I also use it with various cabinets (i.e. different power handling)- 1x12, 2x12 and 4x12. I am aware of the max each type of speaker can put out volume wise and do not push it beyond that. In other words you can pair a speaker cab with a power amp that delivers more power than it can handle, just don't push the cabinet beyond it's limits with the power amp. Just like a car, if you have 600 hp you don't drive it around town with pedal to the metal.

OP - Not sure if this is feedback you were looking for but just my experience with the unit.
 
Sorenspete said:
It's not really a loudness issue but a 'presence'/balls issue. I play high gain stuff, so having that depth/size of sound that you get from a 100w amp has always felt best to me. Even if I'm not playing an arena, my 100w Randall RM100 destroys those little lunchbox 5150's even before we hit practice volume. Not sure if what I'm saying makes sense. I'm no sound engineer, but it seems like the sound I chase tends to have a lot of headroom.
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I get you, I've always thought of this as like torque in cars - but for amps.
You can feel the potential power of a bigger "engine" even if you aren't using it.

Some of it is watts, yes, but not all of it and if all you do is get a lot of watts you may not "fix" it.
In my research, some of thisis the power transformer design and size. Not all amps of equivalent wattage use the same transformers.
Some of it is also how you are getting levels balanced, do you have the output to the power section too hot or too cold?
 
Most front of house engineers will probably tell you, they can make you sound better to the audience, if you don't even use an amp on the stage and just live with the sound from your monitor speakers. The louder you play on stage, the harder it is to make the sound consistent and coherent to the audience.

If you get to play arenas where your backline is "miles" away from the audience, rules may change. But it looks like this is not your everyday scenario.
 
Keep in mind that with most solid state amps, the rated output varies with the load. The 1000W rating of the GT1000 is when bridged mono and run into an 8 ohm cab. If you are using it in stereo with two 16 ohm cabs, you're only getting 150 watts per channel (which is still stupid loud with any decent speaker). See below:

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS

Number of channels- 2
Watts per channel rms @ 4 ohms- 500
Watts per channel rms @ 8 ohms- 325
Watts per channel rms @ 16 ohms- 150
Bridged mode rms @ 8 ohms- 1000
Bridged mode rms @ 16 ohms- 650
Input sensitivity 0.775V
Frequency Response (+/-3db ref 1kHz) 8hz-24kHz
Weight 9lbs

Always mind your cab's wattage rating too. Cranking 1000 watts into a 25 watt Greenback is not going to end well. FRFR and PA type speakers generally have much higher power handling capabilities, so mind your output levels if you are driving guitar cabs.
 
Budda said:
If you have a 1000w power amp and a 412, I'd suspect you're asking not to be mic'd/line out from the modeller if you plan to crank said 412.
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Turn up an amp like that and the 4x12 won't survive very long if it's a typical build, and then someone will be asking to connect the line-out.
 
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