"Real amps just have something modelers can't replicate"

Frodebro said:

“Real amps just have something modelers can't replicate"​


This overused and abused statement emanates largely from the mouths of people who made up their minds going in that they will NEVER let go of their emotional bond with their traditional amps. No matter what happens in the modeling world, they will NEVER accept it. So they think up objections that are vague enough to escape debunking. Press them for specifics and they can’t come up with anything.

See also: “Sounds digital.”
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Maybe I'm missing something, but the 2 things I feel are different, are the dynamics, and the way the gain responds.
I've switched to fast taper pots to replicate the way my amp used to clean up off the guitar vol pot, and the amount of gain seems insane at times.
However, I have dialled back the global input gain, and opted for relatively low output pickups.
Seems to have worked pretty well.
I do feel FW9 has made a bit of a difference too.
Still , I don't regret selling my amp and cab. Not one bit!
 
Gaz said:
Maybe I'm missing something, but the 2 things I feel are different, are the dynamics, and the way the gain responds.
I've switched to fast taper pots to replicate the way my amp used to clean up off the guitar vol pot, and the amount of gain seems insane at times.
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Cliff wrote a post about this - https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/the-modelers-dont-clean-up-with-the-volume-knob-myth.154557/

Basically....if you're playing silent, you either want a bit of the Feedback or Gain Enhancer type on the dynamics tab of the amp block. I prefer Feedback - it feels more natural to me. IIRC, the difference between them is that the Gain Enhancer is a bit more exaggerated/dynamic.

FWIW, I'm also an old-school style player. The difference between sparkly clean and over-the-top distorted is just on the guitar volume pot. My strat gets an always-on 10dB clean boost, largely so it's not clean at ~9 on the volume pot with the same amp and will actually get some real overdrive. But, I don't use any other drive pedals, and I tend to forget that I have other boosts on footswitches. Turning the output up a couple dB as a solo boost seems like something I want to keep, but I'm questioning whether the others are worth the footswitch real-estate.
 
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to be honest, even if the sarcastic statement was true, i'd still go for the axe fx. even if i couldn't replicate real amp tones exactly i could still make better ones and at the very least tones that would work perfectly for me. all that bundled with the huge number of effects and the immense options and capabilities and it's pretty much a no-brainer unless you cant use the thing properly
 
Honestly, the only thing I miss is a true amp in the room sound. After decades with lovely valve amps in the room, I miss that wonderful sound. If you are recording, then that matters less, as recorded the sound is largely the same. But just playing, nothing is quite as inspiring as the sound of an un-mic'd amp in the room. I'd love a Fractal-Cab that accurately does what the Kemper Kab tried to do - emulate an actual, un-mic'd speaker cab and speaker. Being able to get all the models and tones the Axe has out of a combo sized cab with the "correct" speaker model and power amp model, rather than disabling the power amp and cab in the fractal and sending it to an actual power amp and cab, that would be great.
 
zerolight said:
Being able to get all the models and tones the Axe has out of a combo sized cab with the "correct" speaker model and power amp model, rather than disabling the power amp and cab in the fractal and sending it to an actual power amp and cab, that would be great.
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It's already here with the V3 preamp mod Fender Tone Master FR-10 or 12.

I've been using the Atomic CLRs for years and they sound great but the V3 FR-10 really delivers the amp in the room tone.

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Same here. If my OG non-neo CLR cab decides to bite the big one (so far so good, knock on wood). A pair of Tone Master FR's will likely replace it. The CLR sounds fantastic, but I do sometimes miss that real cab in the room vibe. That said, when really cranked in my small man cave, there's not a ton of difference since the room is basically saturated with sound. Fun to play either way.
 
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zerolight said:
Honestly, the only thing I miss is a true amp in the room sound. After decades with lovely valve amps in the room, I miss that wonderful sound. If you are recording, then that matters less, as recorded the sound is largely the same. But just playing, nothing is quite as inspiring as the sound of an un-mic'd amp in the room. I'd love a Fractal-Cab that accurately does what the Kemper Kab tried to do - emulate an actual, un-mic'd speaker cab and speaker. Being able to get all the models and tones the Axe has out of a combo sized cab with the "correct" speaker model and power amp model, rather than disabling the power amp and cab in the fractal and sending it to an actual power amp and cab, that would be great.
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I also love that aitr feel and when I want that I just crank the room in cab block to my taste and had some reverb like recoding studio cranked too and it’s like I can play a cranked plexi without becoming deaf.
 
I firmly believe all the tones are in the AxeFX, the modelling is top tier.

But to get to them, it’s nowhere near as intuitive as using the real thing, and the deep parameters you need to adjust to often match the real amps can very easily lead you astray if you aren’t careful.

To match the real amps, typically I need to check the amp guide and Cliffs forum posts, compare side by side with the real amp (matching the nearest SIC’s, disabling speaker drive etc). Then I need to determine if there is other information missing, such as controls or features from the real amp that aren’t available to edit on the axe fx, and what fixed value they might be set to. Sometimes you even need to calculate correct negative feedback values. Amps like the Marks, Friedmans, Herbert, ENGL etc that have various modes and extra features need a lot of paging around and approximation to get remotely close to a similar experience. It’s just different, and nowhere near as intuitive and fast. I’m not sure how well I’d be able to produce accurate real world tones without actually having the real thing side by side to guide me on what to use, what to tweak, what to expect etc. There’s a layer of separation where you really benefit from familiarity with the real amps still.

The sounds (both in quality and what is possible), as well as the flexibility are awesome. You have to sacrifice intuitiveness as well as spend some time tweaking though as a result.
 
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PSea said:
calculate negative feedback? hmm
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Yes. Like if you have your BE100 set to 4 Ω NFB, or your Marshall’s are set up for 4 Ω NFB and the model has 8 (or 16 in the case of the BE100, although it’s now on a pot).

And some SIC’s will cause the Uberschall model to self oscillate (which does not happen in real life), so it’s another area you have to be careful.
 
another universe to me.
... but i do notice nf is a parameter i do tend to play with in presets. had no idea it was math based in terms of where to set it.
 
austinbuddy said:
I own Two Rock Classic Reverb, Bogner Ecstasy 101b, Tweed Bassman RI and Princeton. They rarely get played though anymore. The FM9 and III has taken their place.

Once you figure out the best FRFR and Cab IR config for the amps you love, the tone is all there.
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I’m still struggling with that.
 
"Real amps just have something modelers can't replicate"
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Yes, that's true, a bad sound!

I bought a Tube15 and 1x12 V30 for comparison. It sounds like in my old days. I don't want these days back. Fractal rules!
 
austinbuddy said:
I own Two Rock Classic Reverb, Bogner Ecstasy 101b, Tweed Bassman RI and Princeton. They rarely get played though anymore. The FM9 and III has taken their place.

Once you figure out the best FRFR and Cab IR config for the amps you love, the tone is all there.
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I have a mint Mesa Roadster 2x12 combo that’s been serving as a stand for my FRFR and AFIII since May 2021.

Logically I should sell it, as I don’t foresee the Roadster series becoming a classic coveted amp, but I just can’t muster the energy.

I also sold a Soldano HR50+ in purple tolex 25+ years ago to buy a triple recto (I was young and very stupid) and I still haven’t gotten over what a monumental jackass move that was, so I’m hesitant to downsize.
 
I play out almost every week, having to cover a bunch of songs by different artists - I cant imagine an amp and pedalboard setup that could approach the AFIII in terms of tone and flexibility. I never even think of going back to amps.
 
mr_fender said:
You can most definitely dial in bad sounds on either platform. People that suck at dialing in real amps will suck equally at dialing in the Axe FX models of those amps.
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I was just talking to somebody about this the other day - how a great engineer can make an amp (or any instrument) sound huge and a lousy engineer can make the best setup ever sound awful.

My favorite example is Slayer - Seasons and South of Heaven sound great IMO, but if memory serves they decided to DIY Divine Intervention and it sounds like complete doodoo. It’s not enjoyable to listen to.

I’ve never played or recorded professionally, but the idea that a 1-2cm difference in mic placement (or a hundred other variables) on a track I’ve played 500x over the past month can determine whether or not people can stand listening to it raises the stakes immeasurably.

Same idea applies to your amps. When I was 15 and playing the entire Metallica catalogue endlessly in my bedroom, it was everything dimed, mids zero. I thought it sounded gooooooood.

30 years later and I still love my metal, but I have an appreciation for them mids. EDIT: And a lot less gain. 🤘🏼
 
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