What do people mean when they say modelers "lack the amp feel"?

Can you describe this?

Honestly.

What would a deaf person feel when playing a tube amp as opposed to something else?

Deaf people can perceive the vibrations. I can imagine that they will feel a 4x12 cabinet differently from a couple of studio monitors. The difference is on the monitors, because they are the component responsible of moving the air; it doesn't matter if the tone comes from a tube amplifier or from a high quality modeler like the Axe-FX.

BTW, I am amazed of the Wacken concerts where they use interpreters for the deaf and hard of hearing persons at the audience.

 
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Want to feel what “feel” feels like? Add a fuzz to the front of your signal chain and play your guitar. That’s “feel.”
 
It means they haven't played Fractal. :cool:

Seriously though, earlier generation modelers didn't capture the complex dynamics.

Another issue though, is people tend to listen to modelers at far lower volumes than tube amps. This gives the illusion that things are not as "dynamic" due to Fletcher-Munson, the lack of tactile sensation and the lack of acoustic feedback into the guitar.
Nine pages later, this is still it.
 
You said honestly. What is your point again?

That "feel" is generally a misnomer.

There are differences is sound, but they mostly come from things like dispersion patterns and room interactions....and volume. I don't think they have anything to do with the amplifier...just the cab. The only "feel" I've ever gotten from an amp was just because it was near me and loud..
 
That "feel" is generally a misnomer.

There are differences is sound, but they mostly come from things like dispersion patterns and room interactions....and volume. I don't think they have anything to do with the amplifier...just the cab. The only "feel" I've ever gotten from an amp was just because it was near me and loud..
You've never played an amp that sags?

That has nothing to do with speakers, sound dispersion, etc.
 
You've never played an amp that sags?

That has nothing to do with speakers, sound dispersion, etc.
This gets to what I see as the core of the issue.

Using an amp without pedals for rock and roll, especially a single channel amp, is educational because we have to learn how the amp reacts to the guitar input, which is based on our picking and where the volume knob is set. We pick lighter or roll down the volume and the amp cleans up, hit the strings hard or roll up the volume and it breaks up. Some players set their amps to reach a good crunch and then push it to full distortion with a pedal; David Grissom talks about this a lot in his videos. Doing it either way puts us in the same position of learning the “feel” of the interaction with the guitar and amp. It’s rock and roll so we tend to enjoy running on the edge of uncontrolled acoustic feedback which is where the system is very responsive to every little thing.

Some people who use an amp with pedals run the amp right on the edge of breakup always and use a distortion, or boost, pedal to push the amp that little extra bit. The sound is very close to the previous situation but they rely on a pedal to make the amp crunch or go beyond that point, and that isolates them from the feel of the guitar and amp because the pedal is doing some of the work. It’s close but few drive pedals have the nuances of the amp itself so the feel suffers somewhat.

There’s been a trend for a while that says to use pedals to sculpt the sound and feed them into a clean amp, using the amp only as a way to get the volume they want. Because the pedals lack the feel of an amp, and the amp isn’t working hard enough to make the tubes and transformer saturate, and the power supply grunt, the overall feel is seriously affected. Even if the amp is running loud enough to cause the acoustic coupling to form with the guitar, it still lacks the amp’s circuitry being pushed past its limits. It’s a more controlled sound but it also lacks the dynamic behavior of an amp being pushed beyond its limits. The end result is a feeling of being isolated from the amp.

I suspect that those who don’t innately know what “feel” is are using their gear in the later way. It’s not right or wrong, it is what it is. The solution is to step away from the drive and boost pedals and rely on the amp for those things, but a clean amp has to be so loud to get the power amp and power supply straining that it discourages experimenting.

As Cliff said, people tend to run their modelers at too low of a volume. That seriously affects the feel. I treat my modelers as single channel amps for the most part because I want the interaction and feel. It’s loud, often peaking just about 100 dB and I’m standing about 4 feet away. It’s the same as I get with my tube amplifiers.

That’s what I see from here.
 
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In my experience with clients and friends, they were usually comparing the sound and feel of the amp through a 6" studio speaker versus a 4x12 cab. The amount of air they are moving is wildly different you could "feel" your picking hand add weight to the sound. Conversely, however, if you run a real amp into a reactive load like the Suhr RA and then compare the "feel"... you will note they are virtually identical.
 
I've owned quite a few amps and played through many more. At this point my "amp in the room," and my favorite of all by far, is my AXE III going through my 10" RedSounds. This is the system I've dreamed about since the late 60s.
 
Let me just preface this by saying I have close to ZERO experience with tube amps so I'm just trying to understand/gain some more insight on this.

What do people mean when they say modelers lack that "amp feel"? How does an amp into a loadbox with the same IR compare? Is it just a mental thing knowing you're playing a physical amp vs a modeler? I do know that some people will just flat out detest a modeler because its digital and not analog. Also i do know that modelers are more of a recorded guitar tone vs amp in the room tone, is this where people are getting the two confused maybe?

Thanks!
Because when you use an amp, you are hearing the signal with your ears, straight from an amp cabinet.

With a modeler, there is an extra "layer" where you are hearing the amp cabinet "through a microphone" then played into the room/though your ears.

That is pretty weird, unless you are in a studio recording guitars and want that sound as the sound leaving your fingers.
 
Maybe. Or I was unclear. The question was why people say modelers lack amp feel. I don't think they do. I think people are falling victim to the human desire to explain something that they like instead of just saying that they like it.
IMO it's because they owned a POD or equivalent device. It's just awful tone and more importantly "FEEL" being reported. Not many, if any modelers are hitting the high bar Fractal Audio does.
 
If you've ever done these comparisons you would realize that the difference you hear is more significant than say 10-20% in wattage.
I have a Ibanez tone blaster head that I've stood in-front of cranked as loud as it could. Every dial on ten and the boost engaged.
It was loud but not ferociously loud.
I dare you do that with a 100 watt Hiwatt.
With the Hiwatt you will flinch it's that loud and feel it in your chest.
Even a 50 watt Hiwatt will have your pants flapping if your in front of it.
Funny you mention this because, I have been thinking this whole thread "some of these dudes have never played a cranked 70s dr103" lol 100 Watt hiwatt will take a marshall major at full tilts and crush its soul lol My 74 dr103 is my most favorite amp I have ever had in the near 40 years of playing. It got recapped and tuned up about 12 yrs ago, and hasnt been turned on since. Nothing and I mean nothing feels the same as that 103 cranked, blasting about 140db's 10' away. Hiwatt is its own thing though, you have to be VERY smooth with your playing, even playing at reasonable volume. It will show every wart, blemish, scuff of your technique laying you naked in front of the world. Cranked just magnifies that.

I enjoyed my ax8 and recently got a fm9 I think theyre great. The issue I am currently having is finding a great way to monitor at home, at reasonable volume. I have 2 ev12's that are excellent in a live situation/jam etc... But still TOO much for playing in my office in a densely packed HOA neighborhood. No one has bitched, but who wants to hear someone getting back into playing after a long layoff?

Anyway, carry on gents
 
Because when you use an amp, you are hearing the signal with your ears, straight from an amp cabinet.

With a modeler, there is an extra "layer" where you are hearing the amp cabinet "through a microphone" then played into the room/though your ears.

That is pretty weird, unless you are in a studio recording guitars and want that sound as the sound leaving your fingers.
This is very true, it's way easier to "rock out with feel" when you're in the tracking room next to a drummer and your 4x12 vs sitting in the control room hearing your miked up guitar coming through studio monitors. I encourage people playing live who will miss this to run through a power amp and into a guitar cab, at least as a transitional phase. That's where I'm at, not sure I'll ever make it to only IEMs or just running through a wedge.
 
I've spent the last 2 years with the Axe and been lucky enough to try different tube amps within the same infrastructure (and I believe the infrastructure I have access to is far better than simply being good enough to have an educated opinion and make a credible point).
I think the terms we usually use to describe the difference between the Axe and a tube amp (comparing them based on sound and feel) are quite misleading. To me sound and feel go hand in hand. Or at least, to me, feel is a product of the combination of sound (tone) and dynamics.
Spending more and more time with the Axe and tube amps in the same environment (both going through the same interface to the same pair of studio monitors) I've grown to understand that I can definitely feel the difference between a tube amp and the Axe under the same listening circumstances, whether it's the studio monitor pair or a real cab with a tube PA. Which in this case means I hear a tonal difference and I also hear a difference in dynamics. I much prefer the way a tube amp reacts to my playing and even moreso I play much better when I'm playing a tube amp even if it's going through the same interface and pair of studio monitors. Not to mention I also prefer the way the effects in the Axe sound when I have an actual tube preamp going into them instead of using the built in amp sim.
However, I've also realized that this difference quickly diminishes when it comes to listening (back) to recordings. If I don't have that actual, immediate connection with the instrument while also listening to the tone and dynamics I can be fooled, in some cases quite easily. This is why imo the Axe works great in a studio setting and in music when dialed in and mixed properly.
Unfortunately feel contributes so much to my playing that I'm definintely a worse guitarist when playing through the Axe instead of a tube amp. The lack of that "something" just makes me more insecure about myself when playing.
And yet, I play the Axe a lot more than my tube amps. Why? Because I'm trying everything I can to get as close as possible, to dial the Axe in to the point where I can get a very similar tone and feel to my amps. I really like the Axe, I think it's the best guitar product ever made and I'd like to make it work. It's just that tube amps work better for me yet - I haven't found those magical combination of settings yet. But even when I don't use the Axe for it's amp modeling I still make good use of the effects with my tube amps - in any case it's a huge win to own the Axe and I'm grateful to Cliff and the team for revolutionizing the digital guitar gear market.
 
I've spent the last 2 years with the Axe and been lucky enough to try different tube amps within the same infrastructure (and I believe the infrastructure I have access to is far better than simply being good enough to have an educated opinion and make a credible point).
I think the terms we usually use to describe the difference between the Axe and a tube amp (comparing them based on sound and feel) are quite misleading. To me sound and feel go hand in hand. Or at least, to me, feel is a product of the combination of sound (tone) and dynamics.
Spending more and more time with the Axe and tube amps in the same environment (both going through the same interface to the same pair of studio monitors) I've grown to understand that I can definitely feel the difference between a tube amp and the Axe under the same listening circumstances, whether it's the studio monitor pair or a real cab with a tube PA. Which in this case means I hear a tonal difference and I also hear a difference in dynamics. I much prefer the way a tube amp reacts to my playing and even moreso I play much better when I'm playing a tube amp even if it's going through the same interface and pair of studio monitors. Not to mention I also prefer the way the effects in the Axe sound when I have an actual tube preamp going into them instead of using the built in amp sim.
However, I've also realized that this difference quickly diminishes when it comes to listening (back) to recordings. If I don't have that actual, immediate connection with the instrument while also listening to the tone and dynamics I can be fooled, in some cases quite easily. This is why imo the Axe works great in a studio setting and in music when dialed in and mixed properly.
Unfortunately feel contributes so much to my playing that I'm definintely a worse guitarist when playing through the Axe instead of a tube amp. The lack of that "something" just makes me more insecure about myself when playing.
And yet, I play the Axe a lot more than my tube amps. Why? Because I'm trying everything I can to get as close as possible, to dial the Axe in to the point where I can get a very similar tone and feel to my amps. I really like the Axe, I think it's the best guitar product ever made and I'd like to make it work. It's just that tube amps work better for me yet - I haven't found those magical combination of settings yet. But even when I don't use the Axe for it's amp modeling I still make good use of the effects with my tube amps - in any case it's a huge win to own the Axe and I'm grateful to Cliff and the team for revolutionizing the digital guitar gear market.
I agree, it's indistinguishable when listening back, only when played live. Unfortunately, I play live 99.9% and record .1% of the time. There is an X factor of like 5% I can't quite make the leap over. I still use the FM3 live though, just cuz at 52, I'm tired of hauling a 100W Marshall around.
 
I'm looking fifty years out into the future. At that point modelers will have become even more realistic. If we concede that Fractal Audio has already made it 98% of the way there, then in fifty years they'll be at 99.9%. Maybe 99.99%. But almost certainly there will still be companies making tube amps at that point (because there will still be a buyers). There is always going to be a market for both, and there will always be proponents and opponents of both. What will be interesting is to see the lengths that "tube only" folks will go to find the tiniest differences to complain about in the future. As for me, even my early 2000's Line 6 modeling amps were good enough for cover band / garage band gigs. The FX III I use today is two or three generations of improvement beyond that. I have no complaints whatsoever with the state of modeling today. On the other hand, I still own half a dozen "real" amps. Why? For the same reason I still own and play 78 rpm records on a 1928 Victrola. It's just cool...
 
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