What do people mean when they say modelers "lack the amp feel"?

[jamesmarshall]

Not to further derail the thread, but do you have a reference for that? I've been a Unix and Linux guy for a pretty long time and I've never heard that mentioned before.

The history of some of this stuff is interesting...

Here is the best thing that is close to what I remember from back then. It does not talk about GNU, however that is really where most of the non-kernel programs came from in the early 90s.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Vim

 

[strabes]

What do people mean when they say modelers lack that "amp feel"?

It means they're comparing the modeler running direct through some speakers that aren't a loud guitar cab, to a tube amp running into a loud guitar cab next to them i.e. they're comparing a recording of an amp played back through some speakers to the actual amp in the room with them. One will of course lack the volume and feedback interaction of the loud guitar speaker interacting with the guitar strings. Worth a read: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/the-modelers-dont-clean-up-with-the-volume-knob-myth.154557/

How does an amp into a loadbox with the same IR compare?

Fractal's amp modeling is essentially indistinguishable when you control for the cab, guitar speaker, mic, mic placement, and monitoring. You can do this by using a reactive load box, the same IR, and the same speakers (hopefully good studio monitors with some acoustic treatment in the room). You could also run an amp model into a high quality neutral clean power amp and the same guitar cab used with the real amp.

Other platforms are good too, Helix & Kemper both easily met the cost/benefit threshold for me to sell all my real amps and pedals, but in my experience nothing is as "real" sounding and feeling as Fractal. Aside from the amp modeling it's also the best platform overall in terms of maturity, routing flexibility, DSP, effects quality, controlling parameters, update consistency, updates that don't have critical bugs, footswitches don't break after a year, etc.

 

[Andy Eagle]

For some strange reason I decided to go with the Powerstage 700 to power mine. I regretted not going with the Matrix, pretty much instantly.

You really hear a difference between them?

I think the Powerstage 700 is good but it lacks the punchy dynamic. The EQ is useful on the fly though and I with the matrix had it.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

...and yet another thread finds a rabbit hole to spiral down...

The rabbit hole came to it.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

They're just confused about the difference between an amp and a cab compared to a mic'd cab sound with actually controllable volume. I assume the same people that think the audience can tell how good your guitar tonez are when its blasting out into a 500sq foot bar at 125 decibels alongside 3 other instruments and a drum kit.

 

[Andy Eagle]

They're just confused about the difference between an amp and a cab compared to a mic'd cab sound with actually controllable volume. I assume the same people that think the audience can tell how good your guitar tonez are when its blasting out into a 500sq foot bar at 125 decibels alongside 3 other instruments and a drum kit.

The audience would be happy with a PV bandit. The sat in front of a good tube amp is a pleasure for guitar players only and Axe doesn't do it but only because FR FR is not capable atm.

 

[laxu]

The audience would be happy with a PV bandit. The sat in front of a good tube amp is a pleasure for guitar players only and Axe doesn't do it but only because FR FR is not capable atm.

IMO it's got nothing to do with FRFR. I used the Atomic FR 1x12 ("neutral" tube amp and fullrange woofer/tweeter) for years and was happy with the tones i was getting. Similarly no complaints about using my Fractal with Genelec M040 studio monitors.

I even went a step further and made IRs of my real 4x10 cab using an almost flat reference mic and the Axe-Fx 3 IR capture feature. IRs sounded exactly like the miced sound.

When I set things up so I could switch Fractal -> studio monitors vs Fractal -> Fryette PS-100 -> 4x10 with decibel meter matched levels in the room, they could sound quite similar too - if I put my ears closer to the floor where the cab is so it's more like where a mic would be. Listening was done at about 90 dB @ 1m level so not that loud, but not very quiet either.

I feel people are just very, very used to the sound of a real guitar cab in a room. Just moving a bit chops off a huge amount of high end and then you have bass reflections of the floor etc. that are less of a thing with a studio monitor or FRFR setup that is far less directional.

Nowadays I find myself even preferring the fullrange sound because it's more consistent, tweakable and cab sims can morph to the "perfect" cab for each amp model.

I'd say part of it is also people not being good at working the cab sims. Picking from a huge list of IRs is a chore and nobody has the will to go through them all to find the perfect ones for their output system and preference. I think Fractal's upcoming cab sim upgrade, if it's similar to what QC and Helix have (movable mics on a virtual speaker), will greatly simplify setting the cab sims to your liking.

 

[Andy Eagle]

IMO it's got nothing to do with FRFR. I used the Atomic FR 1x12 ("neutral" tube amp and fullrange woofer/tweeter) for years and was happy with the tones i was getting. Similarly no complaints about using my Fractal with Genelec M040 studio monitors.

I even went a step further and made IRs of my real 4x10 cab using an almost flat reference mic and the Axe-Fx 3 IR capture feature. IRs sounded exactly like the miced sound.

When I set things up so I could switch Fractal -> studio monitors vs Fractal -> Fryette PS-100 -> 4x10 with decibel meter matched levels in the room, they could sound quite similar too - if I put my ears closer to the floor where the cab is so it's more like where a mic would be. Listening was done at about 90 dB @ 1m level so not that loud, but not very quiet either.

I feel people are just very, very used to the sound of a real guitar cab in a room. Just moving a bit chops off a huge amount of high end and then you have bass reflections of the floor etc. that are less of a thing with a studio monitor or FRFR setup that is far less directional.

Nowadays I find myself even preferring the fullrange sound because it's more consistent, tweakable and cab sims can morph to the "perfect" cab for each amp model.

I'd say part of it is also people not being good at working the cab sims. Picking from a huge list of IRs is a chore and nobody has the will to go through them all to find the perfect ones for their output system and preference. I think Fractal's upcoming cab sim upgrade, if it's similar to what QC and Helix have (movable mics on a virtual speaker), will greatly simplify setting the cab sims to your liking.

I have no issues with the sound if it was a studio situation (see my earlier post.) FRFR can't replicate the interactivity particularly the vintage fender tones in the room.
There is simply no replication of that set up and monitors are just not the same playing experience .

 

[marsonic]

I'd say part of it is also people not being good at working the cab sims. Picking from a huge list of IRs is a chore and nobody has the will to go through them all to find the perfect ones for their output system and preference. I think Fractal's upcoming cab sim upgrade, if it's similar to what QC and Helix have (movable mics on a virtual speaker), will greatly simplify setting the cab sims to your liking.

I think that's also kind of the trick behind cooper carter's "instant AITR thing" with replacing the cabs with EQs...

By detaching yourself from expectations of any specific cab...you can just "make" a cab sound you like. I still need to actually try it, but I'm sure it works for some people. There's a part of me that likes that approach better than auditioning dozens of IRs.

 

[Orvillain]

If the 100W tube hits 130W and the 100W SS stays 100W, that's a 30W difference. I can't think of another way to say it. Yes a watt is a watt - so knowing the actual measurements is important.

I never said otherwise mate. I'm not advocating for not knowing the actual measurements.

Okay but I'm sure you know what I meant by that

Actually, no. I don't.

 

[Orvillain]

Total harmonic distortion matters. A watt is a watt if both amps are producing say the same THD. That 100W tube amp amp produces 130W at something like 10% THD and the solid-state stops at 100W at maybe 1% THD.

That's why ratings can be deceptive when tube amps are rated for low THD but can also be run with high THD. At least for guitar amps we don't see things like "150 watts MUSIC POWER!" bullshit anymore.

Good point!

 

[northern_fox]

Actually, no. I don't.

Solid state amps often need higher power ratings to reach a similar volume level as tube amps, for a variety of possible reasons. My GT1000FX or crown 2502 are barely as loud(er) as my mesa 400+ despite being rated at several times the power, even at low impedance. Yes a watt is a watt, but at a watt-for-watt rating, tube amps are generally much louder at maximum output. I don't think this is news to anyone

 

[Orvillain]

Solid state amps often need higher power ratings to reach a similar volume level as tube amps, for a variety of possible reasons. My GT1000FX or crown 2502 are barely as loud(er) as my mesa 400+ despite being rated at several times the power, even at low impedance. Yes a watt is a watt, but at a watt-for-watt rating, tube amps are generally much louder at maximum output. I don't think this is news to anyone

How have you tested this? Because the physics does not back this statement up at all.

A 100-watt tube amp and a 100-watt solid state amp should produce the same output level at maximum volume. There are other things than power output that can affect the perceived loudness however.

 

[2204JCM]

How have you tested this? Because the physics does not back this statement up at all.

A 100-watt tube amp and a 100-watt solid state amp should produce the same output level at maximum volume. There are other things than power output that can affect the perceived loudness however.

No that's not true.
A ss amp goes into clipping abruptly.
Where a tube amp transitions into clipping more gradually.
Lots of 100 watt ss amps are barely that under testing.
Where lots of 100 watt tube Amps are more than 100 watts tested and 140-160 cranked/distorted. The difference is significant.

 

[Jmschroeder89]

It's like anything at first they suck and get better with time. I.E. digital music. Listen to a super compressed mp3 from 15 years ago vs a Hi-Res Lossless file now. Then do the same with guitar gear. Play a Spider III then play the AxeFX III.

 

[Orvillain]

No that's not true.
A ss amp goes into clipping abruptly.
Where a tube amp transitions into clipping more gradually.
Lots of 100 watt ss amps are barely that under testing.
Where lots of 100 watt tube Amps are more than 100 watts tested and 140-160 cranked/distorted. The difference is significant.

Okay, so they're not 100-watt amps then. Thus the comparison is invalid. Just because something is labelled a 100-watt amp, doesn't mean it is. Which is why measurements matter, as @Budda said.

If you're measuring 100-watt from a valve amp, and 100-watt from a solid state amp, through the same speaker (same speaker efficiency, same frequency response) then the loudness output should be more or less the same.

All things being equal, a 100-watt valve amp will produce the same output volume at maximum volume as a solid state amp. If they don't, then something else in the signal path is causing that. Watts and power output aren't magic concepts. A watt is a measurement of energy transfer, nothing more.

The perceived loudness of an amplifier can be influenced by factors beyond its power output. For example, the type of distortion it produces, the frequency response, and the speaker system being used. Additionally, people's perceptions of loudness can vary greatly and are subjective, so what sounds loud to one person might not sound as loud to another.

So like I said... I would like to know how exactly this is all being tested. Because the claims put forth do not go hand-in-hand with the physics behind the phenomenon.

 

[Orvillain]

My Powerstage 200 can easily get as loud as my 100-watt valve amps, but I have to crank it because the Powerstage is designed to be the most efficient at 4ohms, and my cab is 16ohms. But I can still get the same perceived loudness from it. The manual says that at 8ohms the Powerstage has a maximum power output of 117W at 8ohms, so I'm assuming at 16ohms it is around 60W.

So it would be reasonable to assume that with my tube amps, I'm typically only using 60W of output power, because I can definitely get the same overall loudness.

However, the Powerstage doesn't sound or feel the same. It's stiffer, doesn't have the same low-end bloom on palm mutes, and overall feels more linear to play through. I'd go as far to say that it negatively detracts from the Axe FX3 and Helix that I run into it. I personally feel this is because I'm running it into a 16ohm cab, and that if I rewired the cab to be 4ohms, it would be louder at the same knob setting on it, and perhaps that would fool me into thinking that the overall tone and feel were better. I don't know. Haven't tried it.

This stuff isn't new. People have reported the same kind of things with valve preamps and solid state poweramps for years now.

Solid state poweramps feel different when compared to tube amps. And I think this is largely why people say digital modelling doesn't feel the same as valve amps. Because they're using different poweramps and it isn't a like for like comparison, effectively.

Also another thing to think about... valve poweramps will draw as much power as they need. When you palm mute with a loud amp, the palm mute part of your performance may draw 100watt, but the open chords may draw 60watt. They're dynamic beasts. I don't think the same can be said for a class D poweramp. But I could be wrong.

 

[cole lewis]

The Axe models poweramp sound/feel.

 

[Orvillain]

The Axe models poweramp sound/feel.

But not the impedance interaction between poweramp and speaker. A valve preamp and valve poweramp aren't the same in this respect either. There's a more complex relationship between an all in one valve head and the final speaker output, versus separate units where the preamp and poweramp are connected using an audio cable, and then the poweramp is connected to the final speaker. You don't get the same impedance and power sag relationships. Which is good for some things, and not for others.

A lot of the differences can be boiled down to the existence of a power output transformer, or lack of.

 

[2204JCM]

Okay, so they're not 100-watt amps then. Thus the comparison is invalid. Just because something is labelled a 100-watt amp, doesn't mean it is. Which is why measurements matter, as @Budda said.

If you're measuring 100-watt from a valve amp, and 100-watt from a solid state amp, through the same speaker (same speaker efficiency, same frequency response) then the loudness output should be more or less the same.

All things being equal, a 100-watt valve amp will produce the same output volume at maximum volume as a solid state amp. If they don't, then something else in the signal path is causing that. Watts and power output aren't magic concepts. A watt is a measurement of energy transfer, nothing more.

The perceived loudness of an amplifier can be influenced by factors beyond its power output. For example, the type of distortion it produces, the frequency response, and the speaker system being used. Additionally, people's perceptions of loudness can vary greatly and are subjective, so what sounds loud to one person might not sound as loud to another.

So like I said... I would like to know how exactly this is all being tested. Because the claims put forth do not go hand-in-hand with the physics behind the phenomenon.

If you've ever done these comparisons you would realize that the difference you hear is more significant than say 10-20% in wattage.
I have a Ibanez tone blaster head that I've stood in-front of cranked as loud as it could. Every dial on ten and the boost engaged.
It was loud but not ferociously loud.
I dare you do that with a 100 watt Hiwatt.
With the Hiwatt you will flinch it's that loud and feel it in your chest.
Even a 50 watt Hiwatt will have your pants flapping if your in front of it.