Why lower gain Cameron CCV amp model feels more noisy than much higher gain Herbie 3?

Thomas Obester

Experienced
First, let me say those 2 models are one of my most beloved ones. I love how those amp models sounds. most of the time better than the real amps I had.

But this topic bugs me for quite some time and it seems I can´t find the answer anywhere.

I read all the responses from @FractalAudio, which I could dig from forum.

Basically, as Cliff says, fractal amp models does not produce any noise, it just amplifies noise coming from the guitar - understood.

Then, why Cameron CCV 2A at stock settings produce significantly more noise than Herbie 3 with input gain at 3,5 ?

The Cameron is hard rockish levels of gain and darker sounding of the 2, while the Herbie 3 is just tons of gain and plenty bright with treble at 80%, yet the cameron HISS feels like 2-3x louder.

Also noise-wise, the other marshall-ish amps is similar to Cameron. Then, OTOH, USA IIC++ with double amount of gain and set as bright as marshall-style amp models has a lot less hiss.

Is this because of how circuit is designed ?

Shoudln´t it be that all amp models with similar amount of gain has similar level of noise ?

I know it is as it is and it´s not possible to change it.

I would just love to understand the science behind it for my OCD reasons 😀
 
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First, let me say I love how those amp models sounds. most of the time better than the real amps I had.

But this topic bugs me for quite some time and it seems I can´t find the answer anywhere.

I read all the responses from @FractalAudio which I could dig from forum.

Basically, as Cliff says, fractal amp models does not produce any noise, it just amplifies noise coming from the guitar - understood.

Then, why Cameron CCV 2A at stock settings produce significantly more noise than Herbie 3 with input gain at 3,5 ?

The Cameron is hard rockish levels of gain and darker sounding of the 2, while the Herbie 3 is just tons of gain and plenty bright with treble at 80%, yet the cameron hiss feels like 2-3x louder.

Also noise-wise, the other marshall-ish amps is similar to Cameron. Then, on the other hand, USA IIC++ with double amount of gain and set as bright as marshall-style amp models has a lot less hiss.

Is this because of how circuit is designed ?

Shoudln´t it be that all amp models with similar amount of gain has similar level of noise ?
The short answer is “no”, the same gain level applied to all amps won’t give you the similar level of noise, and “yes” it’s due to the differences in the circuit.

You can use the same levels and amp with a different guitar and have a difference in some cases.

-cheers
 
The short answer is “no”, the same gain level applied to all amps won’t give you the similar level of noise
I would assume this is perfectly true with real amps, which produces thermal noise and it´s own quirks, but since fractal amp models does not produce any of that, I thought the noise/gain level ratio would be more similar.
 
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I would assume this is perfectly true with real amps, which produce thermal noise and it´s own quirks, but since fractal amp models does not produce any of that, I thought the noise/gain level ratio would be more similar.
The fractal amps are modeled pretty faithfully to the circuits of their real life counterparts. So it stands to reason they would give you authentic reactions, hey that’s one of things we love about Fractal. Think it’s more about the behavior of electricity and less about the heat.
 
for sure, models can sound even better than the real deal, it´s really amazing in that sense.
I was just curious about noise difference.
I love cameron ccv, but I hear the noise while playing and it´s not really death metal type of gain level, while with herbie, I can play doomy levels of gain and not hear the noise during chugging..
 
How bright are the Marshalls compared to the Diezels?
Rolls off treble, or change tone stack to see if it's approx the same?
 
How bright are the Marshalls compared to the Diezels?
Rolls off treble, or change tone stack to see if it's approx the same?
the ccv has treble at 50% and presence at 20% (stock settings).
herbie has treble at 80% and presence at 60% (not stock).
If I A/B those 2, the herbie is much brighter and has a lot more gain, yet it produce much less hiss than dark ccv - that´s mystery for me.
 
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the ccv has treble at 50% and presence at 20% (stock settings).
herbie has treble at 80% and presence at 60% (not stock).
If I A/B those 2, the herbie is much brighter and has a lot more gain, yet it produce much less hiss than dark ccv - that´s mystery for me.
What happens when you try different guitar?
 
Turn the bright switch off, or lower the bright cap value
Yes Leon, but if I do that, then the model is not so nice and lively anymore :)
Herbie has brigt cap value of 1000pf compared to ccv´s 440pf.
I know there are some tricks like triode 2 plate freq and lowering it makes the ccv model less noisy, but it always makes the tone duller, which I don´t like.
Basically, I just want to understand, why less gainy model feels more noisy, as there is no way to change it, without altering the tone.
 
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More treble = more noise in most situations. You have to look at like a race car, if you push it too hard it's going off the road. Guitar tone is always about compromise IMO.
 
More treble = more noise in most situations. You have to look at like a race car, if you push it too hard it's going off the road. Guitar tone is always about compromise IMO.
Yes, I understand this, that´s why I wrote that my herbie is set much brighter than ccv.
It´s that much brighter compared to ccv, you would say that one would cut through the mix perfectly while the other would probably have problem to.
And again, the darker one(ccv) is less gainy, yet has more noise in it.
 
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Try lowering some of the bass or mids possibly? Use the same idea that somewhere in the preset, it's getting out of control. Try going through the basic stuff and create some headroom in the amp, then add your EQ later in the chain. It may get you closer to what you are looking for.
 
Try lowering some of the bass or mids possibly? Use the same idea that somewhere in the preset, it's getting out of control. Try going through the basic stuff and create some headroom in the amp, then add your EQ later in the chain. It may get you closer to what you are looking for.
will do so, thanks for the tip !
Hopefully, Cliff or someone else will chime in, when he has some time to do so.
 
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Frequency response. Humans perceive high frequency thermal noise as hiss. The more gain the more hiss. Diezel's have a lot of filtering. Large grid stoppers, plate capacitors, etc. This reduces the bandwidth which lowers the hiss. Camerons are pretty much wide open. Small grid stoppers or bypass caps on the grid stoppers, no plate caps, etc.
 
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