Why does a "side" Reverb block at the end of a chain, right before the output so different/great?

Seeing the new blocks guide released, I felt a bit let down that the mix laws per block were not expanded upon, pursuant to the levels that DLC86 mentioned above, if they are indeed correct. All the guide says is still the 6dB drop at 50/50, except for the delay block.
 
iaresee said:
Running things in parallel holds the dry signal level constant. Where as running them in series and using the mix parameter on the reverb block does not -- the dry and wet levels change in tandem as you move the mix knob. This gives the perception of a tonal change but that is incorrect. All that differs is the ratio of wet to dry signal. You can make a parallel reverb and a series reverb sound idential changing only the mix settings. Ergo, the difference is only in your perception of the relative levels of the dry and wet signal, not in any difference in the reverb algorithm itself.

I'm attaching a preset where the series and parallel reverb sound identical to illustrate this. Scene 1 is series reverb, scene 2 is parallel. You can loop a clip and switch between them if you'd like to convince yourself more thoroughly.
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Wouldn't you have less signal degradation if you run reverb and delay in parallel with the dry signal vs in series? I would think that would have some impact on the final sound.
 
bdrepko said:
Wouldn't you have less signal degradation if you run reverb and delay in parallel with the dry signal vs in series? I would think that would have some impact on the final sound.
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Not really. The Reverb block itself is already a reverb running in parallel with your dry signal — that's what the Mix parameter is for. ;)
 
bdrepko said:
Wouldn't you have less signal degradation if you run reverb and delay in parallel with the dry signal vs in series? I would think that would have some impact on the final sound.
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There is no degredation in either scenario. The signal is digital.
 
ChrisHooker said:
Seeing the new blocks guide released, I felt a bit let down that the mix laws per block were not expanded upon, pursuant to the levels that DLC86 mentioned above, if they are indeed correct. All the guide says is still the 6dB drop at 50/50, except for the delay block.
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Why would you be disappointed? This has never been in consideration for any change AFAIK. It works just fine and with the parallel option you can have it either way.
 
iaresee said:
There is no degredation in either scenario. The signal is digital.
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Maybe degradation is not the right term. But I swear I have had downloaded some presets with many blocks and it sounded clearer when I removed some of them (even though they were bypassed). Could just be my imagination, but it sure sounded like it made a small difference.
 
bdrepko said:
Maybe degradation is not the right term. But I swear I have had downloaded some presets with many blocks and it sounded clearer when I removed some of them (even though they were bypassed). Could just be my imagination, but it sure sounded like it made a small difference.
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If they were bypassed, it's placebo.
 
iaresee said:
Why would you be disappointed? This has never been in consideration for any change AFAIK. It works just fine and with the parallel option you can have it either way.
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It'd be nice if the chorus, flange, pitch, and phaser had 70.71%/70.71% mix law, to keep equal power through the mix range. :)
 
I think it's dumb for a reverb block to dim the dry signal from off all the way to 50%, that makes no sense. Any reverb irl would be added on top of the existing dry, why tf would going from 0 to 25% dim the dry signal at all??
 
shatteredsquare said:
I think it's dumb for a reverb block to dim the dry signal from off all the way to 50%, that makes no sense. Any reverb irl would be added on top of the existing dry, why tf would going from 0 to 25% dim the dry signal at all??
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It makes a lot of sense for a reverb block, because often (not strictly always, though, eg, with extra long pre-delay etc) the reverberated part of the signal outputs virtually at the same time as the dry part. Adding a constant-power dry part would mean that the overall level gets louder, which is just not what an effect is supposed to do.

It's much more ambiguous for things that blur the line b/w "simultaneous" (delay <50ms) and delayed (>100ms) effect output, like for a plex block w/ lots of diffusion.

I agree that it was a bit of a bummer to still see the dangling reference to the delay mix law in the new blocks guide. Is there a "typo and omissions" thread for the manuals?
 
PodXT Pro got the reverb mix knob perfect, blends in the wet on top of dry, dry doesn't move or dip do anything, just gets coated in syrup. Adding the reverb adds a few db, shouldn't it though?? Turn it off and it goes back to normal
 
shatteredsquare said:
I think it's dumb for a reverb block to dim the dry signal from off all the way to 50%, that makes no sense. Any reverb irl would be added on top of the existing dry, why tf would going from 0 to 25% dim the dry signal at all??
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Depending on your situation, you might need to maintain constant level while dialing up the reverb. Or you might need your dry level to remain constant while the reverb rides up on top of it. The Axe-Fx lets you choose either method in a dead-simple way. What's not to love?
 
iaresee said:
Why would you be disappointed? This has never been in consideration for any change AFAIK. It works just fine and with the parallel option you can have it either way.
Click to expand...

Errm... Ian, I'm not asking for a change in how things are processed. I'm asking for the manual to accurately describe what the controls do.
That's kind of the purpose of a manual, isn't it? Currently, it's not saying anything about some blocks using a -3dB dip at 50% mix.
 
ChrisHooker said:
Errm... Ian, I'm not asking for a change in how things are processed. I'm asking for the manual to accurately describe what the controls do.
That's kind of the purpose of a manual, isn't it? Currently, it's not saying anything about some blocks using a -3dB dip at 50% mix.
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In most cases there is not a -3dB dip at 50/50. The dip only applies to the dry part of the signal. Together with the wet part, the output signal is more or less unity gain.
 
yek said:
In most cases there is not a -3dB dip at 50/50. The dip only applies to the dry part of the signal. Together with the wet part, the output signal is more or less unity gain.
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Can we agree that the dry signal drops by 3dB? That is what I meant. I didn't intend to say that the overall volume of dry+wet is 3dB down.
I'm just asking for the manual to specify this, so we don't have drawn-out threads like this where everybody confuses everything.
 
ChrisHooker said:
Errm... Ian, I'm not asking for a change in how things are processed. I'm asking for the manual to accurately describe what the controls do.
That's kind of the purpose of a manual, isn't it? Currently, it's not saying anything about some blocks using a -3dB dip at 50% mix.
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That was entirely unclear from your post.

The manual doesn't need to cover all the details as some of them, such as this, are academically interesting but operationally unimportant. Having unity gain maintined is intuitive and the best default. "I change the mix, I don't need to adjust the block level" -- makes sense.

The wiki provides supplemental details on behavior and does contain a section on the mix laws followed in each block for those who need such exact details. In my experience: that's very few people.
 
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GreatGreen said:
Wait a minute. I thought all the time-based effects (delay, reverb, flanger, phaser, etc) Mix laws were changed so that 50% mix is 100% dry, 100% wet.

It really should be this way, shouldn't it? Adjusting the Mix between 0-50% should basically be keeping the dry signal the same level while adjusting the wet signal from infinitely quiet at 0% to "as loud as the dry signal" at 50%. Then from 50-100%, the wet effect should remain at max volume while the dry signal gets quieter and quieter as you approach 100% Mix.
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you would think so huh
 
mixermang said:
you would think so huh
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The mix law used in the delay block doesn't work well for continuous wet signals -- you end up with output overload too easily if the mix doesn't decrease the dry signal as you increase the wet signal.
 
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