Why does a "side" Reverb block at the end of a chain, right before the output so different/great?

[DLC86]

Is it a case where the combination of wet and dry signals actually increase the overall output, so the mix naturally compensates the two signals to keep overall output the same as when the effect is bypassed?

Yes, this

Anybody know why it was designed like this? Seems like it would be really hard to balance your levels if you're the kind of player who switches individual effects off and on. Why design for the extra step of having to set the Level to compensate for the loss of volume?

If you use the "Mute FX In" bypass mode the level won't change when you engage/bypass the effects
And if you always keep the mix at 50% and use input gain to set the wet level, the volume won't change when switching channels either.
But it will change when adding new blocks to a preset.

Anyway, I made this reminder for the dry level reduction of various blocks when the mix knob is set at 50%:

Chorus: -3 dB
Compressor: -6 dB
Delay: 0 dB
Drive: -6 dB
Flanger: -3 dB
Formant: -6 dB
Megatap Delay: -6 dB
Multiband Comp: -6 dB
Multitap Delay: -3 dB
Phaser: -3 dB
Pitch: -6 dB
Plex Delay: -6 dB
Reverb: -3 dB
Ring Modulator: -6 dB
Rotary: -3 dB
Synth: -6 dB
Ten-Tap Delay: -3 dB
Vocoder: 0 dB

 

[camilovelandiamusic]

Losing some of the delay pronunciation, by running delay before reverb, is a normal anomaly. The more reverb you add, the less pronounced the delay becomes. There is a great balance when you make the reverb time length the same, or a little less than delay. I use this technique with great success.

Its great for a lot of things... but on a track where you already created two ambience tracks, and you don't want more verb, its good. Also if you want some kind of a modern digital delay sound and you don't want it bone dry and don't want to lose the delay in the verb, its great too.

 

[JWDubois]

I've become a big fan of parallel post cab FX. It seems like I can lay on more reverb and delay if I want to when I maintain that parallel dry path.

I also like using the mixer block to collect all the parallel signals. Then you only have to go to one place to adjust the FX levels instead of having to bounce between several blocks.

 

[Sleestak]

I place my verbs in a parallel chain. Because:

• I like my delays to not be reverberated (see above)
• In my workflow this makes it easier to set levels without affecting dry level
• It makes my signal chain shorter
• It prevents undesirable reverb "bursts" when switching between presets.

This has always been my studio approach as well, and my AxeFX presets use both reverb and delay in parallel chain blocks.

 

[shatteredsquare]

I also like using the mixer block to collect all the parallel signals. Then you only have to go to one place to adjust the FX levels instead of having to bounce between several blocks.

Yo that's legit a bonehead simple really good idea, global effects mixer unit down to one stereo pair. Now I have to try it with 5 different drives in front of the amp !

 

[Admin M@]

louder usually sounds better, right

Chris was right. It's just LOUDER.

 

[Anand Mahangoe]

I always use the Reverbs / delays and Plex delays 'parallel' and even so that the output of all those blocks goes straight to the output block....without coming back to the 'dry signal' before the output block.......I hear the difference of the Reverbs being much more open and organic that way than when they are in line with the dry signal.....The way the topic opener shows , it is still less open and organic than the way I described above........and NO ....it is not louder and that's why it sounds more open and organic ....IMHO.....

 

[Admin M@]

I hear the difference of the Reverbs being much more open and organic that way than when they are in line with the dry signal.

OK, just be aware that you are imagining the difference between hearing a single effect in parallel vs. series with the dry signal, because there is none.

 

[JWDubois]

OK, just be aware that you are imagining the difference between hearing a single effect in parallel vs. series with the dry signal, because there is none.

If there is only one active effect, yes.

 

[Anand Mahangoe]

OK, just be aware that you are imagining the difference between hearing a single effect in parallel vs. series with the dry signal, because there is none.

I don't really understand what you mean Matt but here is my preset the way I use it and sounds better.....

 

[iaresee]

I don't really understand what you mean Matt but here is my preset the way I use it and sounds better.....

Running things in parallel holds the dry signal level constant. Where as running them in series and using the mix parameter on the reverb block does not -- the dry and wet levels change in tandem as you move the mix knob. This gives the perception of a tonal change but that is incorrect. All that differs is the ratio of wet to dry signal. You can make a parallel reverb and a series reverb sound idential changing only the mix settings. Ergo, the difference is only in your perception of the relative levels of the dry and wet signal, not in any difference in the reverb algorithm itself.

I'm attaching a preset where the series and parallel reverb sound identical to illustrate this. Scene 1 is series reverb, scene 2 is parallel. You can loop a clip and switch between them if you'd like to convince yourself more thoroughly.

 

[chris]

Anybody know why it was designed like this?

same reason any stomp is has a level knob I think.

 

[iaresee]

Anybody know why it was designed like this? Seems like it would be really hard to balance your levels if you're the kind of player who switches individual effects off and on. Why design for the extra step of having to set the Level to compensate for the loss of volume?

It used to be all blocks used the approach taken by the reverb block but there was a user wish that convinced @FractalAudio to change the way mixing works for the delay block. At the time (and you can search the forum to find this) @FractalAudio mentioned that the mix approach used by the delay block only works well when you're working with discrete signals such as you get from a delay, where it's sampling and repeating only a portion of the signal. Something about it making it hard to work with when the signal is continuous like you get with reverb. But, I'm paraphrasing and poorly here.

Maybe someone can find the thread? It's definitely in the forum.

 

[Anand Mahangoe]

Running things in parallel holds the dry signal level constant. Where as running them in series and using the mix parameter on the reverb block does not -- the dry and wet levels change in tandem as you move the mix knob. This gives the perception of a tonal change but that is incorrect. All that differs is the ratio of wet to dry signal. You can make a parallel reverb and a series reverb sound idential changing only the mix settings. Ergo, the difference is only in your perception of the relative levels of the dry and wet signal, not in any difference in the reverb algorithm itself.

I'm attaching a preset where the series and parallel reverb sound identical to illustrate this. Scene 1 is series reverb, scene 2 is parallel. You can loop a clip and switch between them if you'd like to convince yourself more thoroughly.

Aahhhhhh........now it sounds the SAME.....thanks a lot for your effort....

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

On the delay block, the dry signal stays constant from 0-50 and then decreases from 50-100. The wet signal increases from 0-50 and then stays constant from 50-100.

Like an M/N taper dual pot.

On the reverb block, and every other block AFAIK, the wet signal increases from 0-100 and the dry signal decreases from 0-100.

Like a dual linear taper pot.

 

[yek]

It used to be all blocks used the approach taken by the reverb block but there was a user wish that convinced @FractalAudio to change the way mixing works for the delay block. At the time (and you can search the forum to find this) @FractalAudio mentioned that the mix approach used by the delay block only works well when you're working with discrete signals such as you get from a delay, where it's sampling and repeating only a portion of the signal. Something about it making it hard to work with when the signal is continuous like you get with reverb. But, I'm paraphrasing and poorly here.

Maybe someone can find the thread? It's definitely in the forum.

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/delays-fx-sucking-tone-othef-questions.73439/#post-899312

 

[chris]

The Delay Mix Law changed back in Axe-Fx II Firmware 11.00, August 28, 2013. Here's the release note:

• Changed mix law for Delay block. The dry signal now stays constant at unity until Mix reaches 50% then decreases linearly to zero. Conversely the wet signal starts at zero and then increases linearly to unity when Mix reaches 50%. This eliminates having to compensate for decreased dry signal when increasing the mix.

https://www.axefxtutorials.com/axe-fx-ii/fw-a2/firmware-11-00-released-axe-fx-ii/

 

[IronSean]

I think that change makes a lot of sense for delay. You would want your dry signal to remain unaffected up until you didn't. Ie, even by adding in more delay signal you wouldn't want your dry signal to start dropping as often your dry signal is still your main signal. Up until you do, because you're going for an effect that is primary delayed signal and you want your dry signal to sit lower (mix above 50%). Also for delays longer than a slapback the delay volume isn't really additive: it's not adding to the volume of your note while your note is still ringing necessarily.

But a reverb probably behaves in a more additive manner: your reverb signal is happening at the same time as your original notes until you have a large predelay, so the volume of the reverb gets added to the volume of your dry signal. So having your dry signal turn down as the mix turns up helps keep a smooth output level.

 

[Rex]

Ie - not inline with the rest of the blocks like below. It sounds way more "open" and organic.

Just got my Axe FX III a few days ago.. I am like a mad scientist with this incredible device.

View attachment 65984

I see you have the Flanger in parallel with the Reverb. That means your flanged signal never gets processed by Reverb. That will make it sound different.

 

[Liam Thompson]

I've become a big fan of parallel post cab FX. It seems like I can lay on more reverb and delay if I want to when I maintain that parallel dry path.

I also like using the mixer block to collect all the parallel signals. Then you only have to go to one place to adjust the FX levels instead of having to bounce between several blocks.

Same way I work