Clif’s thread on AITR:
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/amp-in-the-room.141579/
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/amp-in-the-room.141579/
Because were sick of chasing the tube screamer
I agree, it’s relevant. Guitar amplification then and now is very connected to the developments in live sound over time. The purpose and method of live rock sound is different now. FOH engineering before line array and db limits was an art form. As near as I can tell, the basic idea was to push the mains to the point of overloading the room, then EQ the resonances/modes out, with each venue becoming an integral part of the sound. This approach plus no db limits, meant live sound was exhilarating to a point bordering on fright, a real physical experience.I have heard a few guitarists say they don’t have the singer in their in-ear mix.
In Petrucci’s case- I can understand that.
DP in ‘73 - that has to be a bench mark.
Can you think of anything since then that you have seen live that was as impressive.
I think it’s relative to the thread.
We likely will continue to go around on the AITR issue to no end and as long as the debate remains civil, that's fine. I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone here or anyone's personal tastes, but other than the fact that the posted DP video was shot in 72 I really don't see anything special about it. For the period it was likely incredible and I respect that. I'm 46 and have been an all genre music fan my entire life but I personally would take hundreds of more modern live performances over the one posted. Technology in the last 40 years has drastically improved the quality of live shows.
I'm not denying the talent of the band especially given the date it was recorded. It's a lot like comparing 70's NHL, MBL, NBA, NFL to the game of today. The worst team in the league today would be better by far than the dynasty teams from yesterday. This is no disrespect for those early innovators that blazed new trails.
It was great for 72 but today it's like...meh. Blackmore's tone is decent but everything else is barely average. The base mix is below average, there is a pile of backround noise, a non stop ringing coming from the toms that's muddying the mix. The keys are buried by the guitar. The bass is buried by the ringing toms. The band works this handicap and leaves room for each other which is something that is often lost today.
This is simply not true.Because that’s what it takes to keep up with a loud drummer and the rest of the band. An amp. In a room. You can play all the records on your stereo or PA at rehearsal as loud as you want all you want, the live band in the room are gonna demolish it every time.
I must say, I completely disagree.
Here I switch between the 'AxeFX direct' and 'studio monitors in the room' - I much prefer the direct signal
Thanks @DLC86 I know exactly what you mean. I have the same issue in my cover band gig - play small venues and rarely mic any of the instruments. After trying a few different amp/cab combos, I'm now using the Mission Gemini II in stereo and it seems to be able to blend well in any of our small club venues. The GII has a dial on the back called "emPower" that allows you to turn it from full flat response to a more standard speaker sound. That has been really helpful as I can dial it in for any room and get a more "amp in the room"IMHO it depends on the type of amplification used for other instruments and the venue.
This is my experience:
At some point a few years ago I bought 2 Atomic CLRs and was blown away by the tones I was getting and the even dispersion pattern, so much so that I decided to sell my 2x12 cab and power amp.
After some time and a few gigs though I started to realize I was struggling to "glue" with other instruments, simply because we only play small venues without a proper PA, so the drum is unmic'd, the bass and keyboard have their own amps and basically everything had an "in-the-room" sound except my guitar.
That always gave the impression my guitar was almost a recorded track compared to the liveliness of other instruments.
I experimented with tons of IRs of all kinds but never really got rid of that feeling, so I bought another cab and power amp and now I play with those plus a bit of signal in the CLRs for some stereo spread, best of both worlds and couldn't be happier.
Maybe I just didn't find the right IR or maybe I could get there with a bit of tweaking, but the fact is that a real cab is pretty much plug and play for me and all I need to tweak is basic amp controls, just like dealing with a real amp.
PS: the dispersion pattern of a real cab can be easily corrected by installing "Mitchell donuts" (google it) in front of your speakers.
Similar here. In the home studio, run to both powered Studio Monitors at head level, and a Xitone, horizontal 2x12 on the floor angled up in front, via a Matrix amp. One difference is I go Axe to Focusrite rack mixer/router to monitors and speakers.I simply run one modeled amp signal path directly to the matrix via out2 which delivers a stereo kilowatt to two Friedman 2 x 12’s. Sure feels like AITR
I also run a pair of stereos out1 to powered FRFR.
Someone asked “why?”…
Because… it’s fun as shit!
I must say, I completely disagree.
Here I switch between the 'AxeFX direct' and 'studio monitors in the room' - I much prefer the direct signal
I agree, it’s relevant. Guitar amplification then and now is very connected to the developments in live sound over time. The purpose and method of live rock sound is different now. FOH engineering before line array and db limits was an art form. As near as I can tell, the basic idea was to push the mains to the point of overloading the room, then EQ the resonances/modes out, with each venue becoming an integral part of the sound. This approach plus no db limits, meant live sound was exhilarating to a point bordering on fright, a real physical experience.
Queen 1978, Styx 1979 (best live guitar tone I’ve ever heard), The Who/Pretenders 1980, Van Halen 1981... All seriously loud, structure shaking, immersive experiences. This as compared to the modern db limited experience, which seems designed to mimic listening to a record through a PA...
I love them. I think they are a significant notch better than my previous Adam A7s. Very clear soundstage with good definition in both stereo image and frequency.
Apart from the feeling of pushing air, the amp in the room sound is also a major factor in the overall tone itself. The midrange you hear at room mic distance from an amp is totally different to the midrange response of a close mic.
When you mention room mic distance, how far are you talking about?
Hey Bill,
I definitely didn't intend to hurt any feelings when I was critical of the DP clip posted. Again, that performance was amazing for it's time. The sound quality and mix is good, especially considering the gear/tech they would have had available in '72. It was also recorded before I was alive to put things into perspective. I have tremendous respect for the musicians that paved the way for us today. Each subsequent generation of players, technicians, and innovators push the performance envelop and experience first.
I remember attending my first live concerts in the late 80's and how overwhelming the experience was. I saw most of the late 80's/early 90's touring arena bands. There were some great shows. I always left with ringing ears, a bit of a beer buzz and a grin from ear to ear. In my mind that was as good as it's gonna get, right? It didn't sound like the CD, but it still sounded good and it was about the experience.
Fast forward to the late 90's and the wife and I are in our local arena for Matchbox 20's Mad Season tour. I remember looking at the PA hang and chatting with the road crew about this new fangled line array thing. I had heard good things about the technology, but never experienced it. Well I was completely floored that night. At the time it was the best sounding live show I had been to by a wide margin. You could here every nuance. The reverb on the drums, finger noise on the guitar strings, the horn section sat in the mix perfectly. It sounded like the CD it had all the energy and sensory overload of a live show. No real AITR sound just great tones that sat perfectly in the mix.
Over the years that followed I experienced many great sounding shows in that arena and worked crew for many of them as well. It's like the live sound experience achieved what I heard in my head. It's not that the shows I saw when I was younger sounded bad, but the new shows sounded the way I heard them in my head.
That '72 DP show, to you, sounds the way a rock concert should. That is fabulous. It is what you perceive as great. Most likely because it's what you grew up listening to and it sounds right to your ears. I respect that and I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. At the same time what I hear as right is something different and I don't expect everyone to share that taste.
In short all is good!