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Why are we chasing the amp in the room sound?

S

seeu22

Member
Bill Arsenault said:
I have heard a few guitarists say they don’t have the singer in their in-ear mix.
In Petrucci’s case- I can understand that.
DP in ‘73 - that has to be a bench mark.
Can you think of anything since then that you have seen live that was as impressive.
I think it’s relative to the thread.
Click to expand...

We likely will continue to go around on the AITR issue to no end and as long as the debate remains civil, that's fine. I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone here or anyone's personal tastes, but other than the fact that the posted DP video was shot in 72 I really don't see anything special about it. For the period it was likely incredible and I respect that. I'm 46 and have been an all genre music fan my entire life but I personally would take hundreds of more modern live performances over the one posted. Technology in the last 40 years has drastically improved the quality of live shows.

I'm not denying the talent of the band especially given the date it was recorded. It's a lot like comparing 70's NHL, MBL, NBA, NFL to the game of today. The worst team in the league today would be better by far than the dynasty teams from yesterday. This is no disrespect for those early innovators that blazed new trails.

It was great for 72 but today it's like...meh. Blackmore's tone is decent but everything else is barely average. The base mix is below average, there is a pile of backround noise, a non stop ringing coming from the toms that's muddying the mix. The keys are buried by the guitar. The bass is buried by the ringing toms. The band works this handicap and leaves room for each other which is something that is often lost today.
 
austinbuddy

austinbuddy

Fractal Fanatic
Vendor
seeu22 said:
Just a follow up to what Austin Buddy has said........ In my studio/jam room I've got a set of studio monitors for recording. On the opposite wall I have a set of QSC HPR112i mounted near the ceiling angled slightly down. I've got a Soundcraft Ui16 running those speakers. It's a great little rehearsal rig for when the band comes over.

I will often route the Axe III through the QSC's, put some backing tracks on the studio monitors and jam along. Of course I crank it quite loud, but the sound/tone is incredible. It is some of the best amp in the room tones I have ever had. I have a Egnater Mod 50 with several modules, a Bogner Shiva, Xtc 101b, an Atma, a Dr. Z Maz18 and various cabs. Every one of those amps sound incredible on their own, but honestly, the Axe III can easily hang with all of them. The nice thing about the Fractal is the sound is same everywhere in the room.

We are so fortunate to have all these amazing tools for live use and recording. With my Axe II, I felt that it recorded great, but the live stage/AITR tones weren't quite there yet. I got the Axe III and I haven't been able to stop smiling since.
Click to expand...
Feel like quoting the Mandolorian here:

“This is the way.” 😎
 
∞Fractals

∞Fractals

Power User
MisterE said:
I think we'll never be able to get any modeler to sound like an amp in the room.
It that's not only because of the modeler.
AITR:
Amp->Cab->Ears
Modeler:
Amp->IR->FRFR->Ears

The IR is a filter - it only captures part of the sound of a speaker and is filtered through the microphone
Even the FRFR is a filter since none of them are really flat.

And there's another thing, especially with a 4x12" Cab.


It's my guess, this is what a lot of guitar players are looking for.

But an IR can not really capture the sound of a 4x12" - it's always combination of one speaker in the cab with one or more mikes pointed a a certain part of the speaker.

I'm happy with what I hear from my CLR's on stage and my Equator D8's at home. And what matters to me, is that what I hear through my CLR's resembles closely what comes out of the PA.
Click to expand...


I simply run one modeled amp signal path directly to the matrix via out2 which delivers a stereo kilowatt to two Friedman 2 x 12’s. Sure feels like AITR

I also run a pair of stereos out1 to powered FRFR.

🤔
Someone asked “why?”…

Because… it’s fun as shit! 😆
 
S

seeu22

Member
∞Fractals said:
I simply run one modeled amp signal path directly to the matrix via out2 which delivers a stereo kilowatt to two Friedman 2 x 12’s. Sure feels like AITR

I also run a pair of stereos out1 to powered FRFR.

🤔
Someone asked “why?”…

Because… it’s fun as shit! 😆
Click to expand...
I like fun as shit! lol. The wife is gone today so.....Just for shits and giggles I ran out to the band trailer and dragged a pair of Yamaha DSR112 into the jam space. I've got the Axe pounding through a pair of QSc HPR112i and the DSR's. I better have my blast now because when the boss gets home I'll be in shit.
 
S

stereotactic

Experienced
Bill Arsenault said:
I have heard a few guitarists say they don’t have the singer in their in-ear mix.
In Petrucci’s case- I can understand that.
DP in ‘73 - that has to be a bench mark.
Can you think of anything since then that you have seen live that was as impressive.
I think it’s relative to the thread.
Click to expand...
I agree, it’s relevant. Guitar amplification then and now is very connected to the developments in live sound over time. The purpose and method of live rock sound is different now. FOH engineering before line array and db limits was an art form. As near as I can tell, the basic idea was to push the mains to the point of overloading the room, then EQ the resonances/modes out, with each venue becoming an integral part of the sound. This approach plus no db limits, meant live sound was exhilarating to a point bordering on fright, a real physical experience.

Queen 1978, Styx 1979 (best live guitar tone I’ve ever heard), The Who/Pretenders 1980, Van Halen 1981... All seriously loud, structure shaking, immersive experiences. This as compared to the modern db limited experience, which seems designed to mimic listening to a record through a PA...
 
S

stereotactic

Experienced
seeu22 said:
We likely will continue to go around on the AITR issue to no end and as long as the debate remains civil, that's fine. I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone here or anyone's personal tastes, but other than the fact that the posted DP video was shot in 72 I really don't see anything special about it. For the period it was likely incredible and I respect that. I'm 46 and have been an all genre music fan my entire life but I personally would take hundreds of more modern live performances over the one posted. Technology in the last 40 years has drastically improved the quality of live shows.

I'm not denying the talent of the band especially given the date it was recorded. It's a lot like comparing 70's NHL, MBL, NBA, NFL to the game of today. The worst team in the league today would be better by far than the dynasty teams from yesterday. This is no disrespect for those early innovators that blazed new trails.

It was great for 72 but today it's like...meh. Blackmore's tone is decent but everything else is barely average. The base mix is below average, there is a pile of backround noise, a non stop ringing coming from the toms that's muddying the mix. The keys are buried by the guitar. The bass is buried by the ringing toms. The band works this handicap and leaves room for each other which is something that is often lost today.
Click to expand...

Don’t forget, this is a recording of a live event and we don’t know what format they recorded with, who engineered it, how many mics they had, etc. Most live recordings don’t turn out great even with a big budget.

I’ve been next to the stage during some great 70’s and 80’s arena rock shows, and I had no trouble hearing all the instruments. The recorded medium has 90 dbs of dynamic range, your ears have about 120. Nothing I have seen in the modern era compared to the experience of listening to Brian May, the guys from Styx or EVH blasting the away with all those watts on stage, then being reinforced by a huge PA. When I walked past Brian May’s wall of Vox AC30s roaring away, I nearly lost my balance it was so forceful. It didn’t hurt my ears, it was just a pure wall of sound. Unless someone has actually heard great live sound from that era, I don’t think they have any idea what an exceptional experience it could be...
 
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F

FullThrottle64

Inspired
Musikron said:
Because that’s what it takes to keep up with a loud drummer and the rest of the band. An amp. In a room. You can play all the records on your stereo or PA at rehearsal as loud as you want all you want, the live band in the room are gonna demolish it every time.
Click to expand...
This is simply not true.

I can daisy-chain as many monitors and PA cabinets as I like with a digital rig, and it will not only get as loud or louder than my "legacy" tube amps, I can get far better coverage and get the proper volume everywhere in the room, not just the narrow-beam "kill zone" of a 4x12 cabinet.

FWIW, I have seven DXR12s in my arsenal, so it's not an idle threat.
 
A

Andy Eagle

Experienced
Real amps ( the very best ones) still sound bigger fatter wider and more interactive and alive . BUT in every actual use you can't in practice tell the difference and the amazing convenience and capability of the best digital is good enough. Real amps are huge heavy and require a lot of outboard gear ,also tubes are a PITA. It is a problem you play digital and tell yourself it is just as good and then someone brings a Plexi or and old Fender and bang you miss amp in the room again. At least until you have to move it.
 
curious

curious

Experienced
DLC86 said:
IMHO it depends on the type of amplification used for other instruments and the venue.
This is my experience:

At some point a few years ago I bought 2 Atomic CLRs and was blown away by the tones I was getting and the even dispersion pattern, so much so that I decided to sell my 2x12 cab and power amp.

After some time and a few gigs though I started to realize I was struggling to "glue" with other instruments, simply because we only play small venues without a proper PA, so the drum is unmic'd, the bass and keyboard have their own amps and basically everything had an "in-the-room" sound except my guitar.
That always gave the impression my guitar was almost a recorded track compared to the liveliness of other instruments.

I experimented with tons of IRs of all kinds but never really got rid of that feeling, so I bought another cab and power amp and now I play with those plus a bit of signal in the CLRs for some stereo spread, best of both worlds and couldn't be happier.

Maybe I just didn't find the right IR or maybe I could get there with a bit of tweaking, but the fact is that a real cab is pretty much plug and play for me and all I need to tweak is basic amp controls, just like dealing with a real amp.

PS: the dispersion pattern of a real cab can be easily corrected by installing "Mitchell donuts" (google it) in front of your speakers.
Click to expand...
Thanks @DLC86 I know exactly what you mean. I have the same issue in my cover band gig - play small venues and rarely mic any of the instruments. After trying a few different amp/cab combos, I'm now using the Mission Gemini II in stereo and it seems to be able to blend well in any of our small club venues. The GII has a dial on the back called "emPower" that allows you to turn it from full flat response to a more standard speaker sound. That has been really helpful as I can dial it in for any room and get a more "amp in the room"
 
cybermgk

cybermgk

Inspired
∞Fractals said:
I simply run one modeled amp signal path directly to the matrix via out2 which delivers a stereo kilowatt to two Friedman 2 x 12’s. Sure feels like AITR

I also run a pair of stereos out1 to powered FRFR.

🤔
Someone asked “why?”…

Because… it’s fun as shit! 😆
Click to expand...
Similar here. In the home studio, run to both powered Studio Monitors at head level, and a Xitone, horizontal 2x12 on the floor angled up in front, via a Matrix amp. One difference is I go Axe to Focusrite rack mixer/router to monitors and speakers.

Feels like AITR to me as well
 
Bill Arsenault

Bill Arsenault

Member
stereotactic said:
I agree, it’s relevant. Guitar amplification then and now is very connected to the developments in live sound over time. The purpose and method of live rock sound is different now. FOH engineering before line array and db limits was an art form. As near as I can tell, the basic idea was to push the mains to the point of overloading the room, then EQ the resonances/modes out, with each venue becoming an integral part of the sound. This approach plus no db limits, meant live sound was exhilarating to a point bordering on fright, a real physical experience.

Queen 1978, Styx 1979 (best live guitar tone I’ve ever heard), The Who/Pretenders 1980, Van Halen 1981... All seriously loud, structure shaking, immersive experiences. This as compared to the modern db limited experience, which seems designed to mimic listening to a record through a PA...
Click to expand...

Just listening to someone who was there describe that stuff is still fascinating to me.
Glad you came to the rescue-
I was crushed by those comments about the live mix of the DP show.
I won’t listen if he tries that craziness with Hendrix in Maui ’70.

I have had a Master volume modded ‘72 SuperLead somewherein my living room / Kitchen since 2008.
So I am use to joking and being silly about the topic of having and using the full-stack the way it was intended.
When I am exhausted at the end of the day from work and then maybe jamming and having a few IPA’s and couple rips off a cigar,
I have found myself getting involved in the comments section on You-tube videos and often get carried away.

I should have realized beforehand that the a fractal forum would not be similar to the comment section on You-Tube.

There is significant genius, knowledge, wisdom, experience and talent lurking around here.

I did not even know what AITR stood for and that it had been discussed to death by administration.
That’s when it occurred to me to hit the brakes and start reading and learning more and stop commenting-
just occasional questions.

It sincerely did not occur to me that a forum might have integrity and that you should be considerate and courteous.
Especially wanted to apologize for the fear-mongering about ear damage from in-ear monitor use.


Haha-Anywzy
to kill 2 birds while I’m here can someone tell me how to raise volume of my guitar sound/ FM3coming out of the monitors without increasing the volume of a you-tube backing track coming from an iPad that is connected to the FM3.

Appeared like I couldn’t control independent volume on the iPad while it was connected-
Bu hopefully I’m wrong.

Thx.
 

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