What brand of cable are you using for guitar to Axe?

[henryrobinett]

I think there's a little bit of both snake oil and real perceivable difference. I can DEFINITELY here differences, but I've never done a double blind test. I use a defunct cable company called MIT for guitar. I bought a few extras to keep me going. Whenever I use another cable I hear noise.

 

[funny_polymath]

My understanding albeit a newbie one is that other than quality I.e. strength and durability it is all about the capacitance as commented on by Cliff. The difference in capacitance between the cables is the difference you hear between them. The capacitance rolls off the high end and how you have you Axe-FX set up with regards to those frequencies would also determine the differences or lack of that you do or do not hear.

I have a new g90 now (just upgraded from the g50 for form factor reasons) and it’s easy to hear this effect in play. There is a cable length simulator on the g50/g90 and you can most definitely hear a difference as you change the simulated length parameter. The cable tone simulation actually provides more high-end roll off as you increase the length of the cable simulation. The tone definitely becomes somewhat darker.

In other words, the cable length simulator is just a variable capacitor. At least, that is how I understand and hear it from my humble experiences with the Axe-Fx and g60/g90. But what do I know?

The reason I am not sure this is the entire picture, because the most impressive thing about the Monster cables I use is not the slight bit more 'air' - it is the tighter, more distinct low end, and the less blurry transients in that part of the spectrum.

 

[cobbler]

The reason I am not sure this is the entire picture, because the most impressive thing about the Monster cables I use is not the slight bit more 'air' - it is the tighter, more distinct low end, and the less blurry transients in that part of the spectrum.

This is a never ending debate but I will share a true story with you. I had a friend go out and buy a high end Yamaha surround sound receiver and speakers many years ago. I forget where he bought it but it was some national brick and mortar chain like Circuit City or Best Buy. He also came home with a box of Monster cables that ran him well over 500 dollars and asked me to help him hook it all up since he's not particularly adept at such things and was overwhelmed.

So I cruised over and brought my box of various cables and connectors etc. that is basically my junk drawer of wires and wall warts all us geeks have. I got everything hooked up and when he told me what he paid for the Monster cables I kind of, well no, I actually laughed. Yikes!

I then proceeded to do a blind test. We had several people there and I was the only one behind the entertainment center so nobody could tell what I was doing. I interchanged many of the Monster cables with cheap Radio Shack counterparts and though there were ever so slight and I mean slight differences nobody could really define which was better sounding.

I then told them I put all the Monster cables back and all of a sudden half of the people heard a remarkable improvement. None more so than my friend who had purchased them. Only thing was, I had actually changed NOTHING. I learned a lot that day with regards to perception and buy all my cables (or now make my own) based on quality of build rather than the specs and data these salesmen toss at you.

While I do not doubt your experience and your ears (as mine are sadly old ) I just take a lot of what people say about cables and wiring with a grain of salt. There was absolutely no way to justify the 400% mark up on those Monster AV cables as I proved that day yet he kept them. They sure looked pretty though behind that entertainment center!

 

[funny_polymath]

This is a never ending debate but I will share a true story with you. I had a friend go out and buy a high end Yamaha surround sound receiver and speakers many years ago. I forget where he bought it but it was some national brick and mortar chain like Circuit City or Best Buy. He also came home with a box of Monster cables that ran him well over 500 dollars and asked me to help him hook it all up since he's not particularly adept at such things and was overwhelmed.

So I cruised over and brought my box of various cables and connectors etc. that is basically my junk drawer of wires and wall warts all us geeks have. I got everything hooked up and when he told me what he paid for the Monster cables I kind of, well no, I actually laughed. Yikes!

I then proceeded to do a blind test. We had several people there and I was the only one behind the entertainment center so nobody could tell what I was doing. I interchanged many of the Monster cables with cheap Radio Shack counterparts and though there were ever so slight and I mean slight differences nobody could really define which was better sounding.

I then told them I put all the Monster cables back and all of a sudden half of the people heard a remarkable improvement. None more so than my friend who had purchased them. Only thing was, I had actually changed NOTHING. I learned a lot that day with regards to perception and buy all my cables (or now make my own) based on quality of build rather than the specs and data these salesmen toss at you.

While I do not doubt your experience and your ears (as mine are sadly old ) I just take a lot of what people say about cables and wiring with a grain of salt. There was absolutely no way to justify the 400% mark up on those Monster AV cables as I proved that day yet he kept them. They sure looked pretty though behind that entertainment center!

No doubt the power of suggestion is true. But I did double blind tests with another guy. It was very convincing. Also, a bunch of 'regular folks' vs. two audio engineers who've had ear training is quite a different kettle of fish.

 

[Trazan]

Difference in capacitance doesn't just give you more or less top end, it shifts the resonant peak in a very audible frequency area. Depending on pickup and input load it's some serious eq'ing going on. Imagine shifting that peak from 4k to 3k. Very audible!

Here's a chart, same pickup with varying capacitance from 47 pF to 2200 pF:

 

[Rhiza]

I've been testing cables and I'm very into using hi-end cables.
That said, most cables are actually good enough!
It's only the really cheap ones you have to stay away from, where you get a lot of hi-pass.
I haven't noticed any hi-end sparkle/improvment from cable to cable, except that the low-end is more present in good cables.

I make my own cables, using good wires, Neutrik jacks and good soldering skills. That said, It's cheap, very durable and I never have any problems what so ever.
A friend of mine makes guitar cables made out of Mogami wires and Neutrik jacks. I'll try those soon, but for now, I don't need to.

 

[Scott Peterson]

Canare GS-6, Neutrik ends.

 

[hideous]

"Van Damme 268-011-000 Classic instrument cable" w/ neutrik jacks (one angled jack, one straight jack)
Colour : Classic black.

 

[cobbler]

Difference in capacitance doesn't just give you more or less top end, it shifts the resonant peak in a very audible frequency area. Depending on pickup and input load it's some serious eq'ing going on. Imagine shifting that peak from 4k to 3k. Very audible!

Here's a chart, same pickup with varying capacitance from 47 pF to 2200 pF:

So explain this to me. Again, I am a newbie and just learning here. I have several guitar cables here. A couple no name cheapies along with a Monster Rock performer 500 and a top of the line Mogami Platinum (both gifts as I would NEVER pay that much for a cable). Though there is a difference in sound it is very subtle and I always thought it was due to changes in capicatance. I certainly cannot hear a 50 dollar difference of the Monster over the others or the 100 dollar difference of the Platinum over the Monster. Again, its very subtle and I do not have golden trained ears. I personally make my own patch cables etc as I know how to solder. I use Mogami cable and Nuetrik connectors.

funny_polly, I am not arguing with you so I hope you don't take offence. Just stating my opinion and trying to learn from all you with much more experience than I. I just don't see or hear a huge difference that would warrant the price increases that companies like Monster command. I certainly believe in quality components for durability reasons and that is why I now make my own with quality cabe and connections at a fraction of the cost.

Trazan, my understanding is that the Capacitance of the cable along with the inductance of the pickups and the resistance of pots forms the circuit and creates a resonant frequency somewhere between 3kHz to 5kHz. I believe the above chart in your post shows that. Increasing the capacitance lowers that resonant frequency and darkens the sound and decreasing the capacitance moves it up and makes it sound brighter. That also would be supported by the chart no?

And with the g90 variable capacitance it seems to do the same thing. The higher I turn it up the darker it sounds. If I have a high gain patch that is creating a lot of noise I can turn that up and the noise decreases. So to me it would seem it is all about the capacitance. That is the one change being made in the circuit and there is no cable!

That is what I meant by rolling off the top end. Did I use the wrong term?

WIth all this said, I bet I cold still fool just about anyone when used in a mix. I am however, just one of those "regular" folks!

 

[mba]

Get a spectrum analyser, send a white noise into your cable and you will see what you ears hear.
(record the peaks during 1 minute)
My 2 cents.

 

[Trazan]

Trazan, my understanding is that the Capacitance of the cable along with the inductance of the pickups and the resistance of pots forms the circuit....

Exactly! The cable is part of the circuit. The capacitance tunes the curcuit, and the amount needed to get it where it sounds "best" is dependant on the rest of the curcuit, and personal choice. That's why saying this and that cable sounds good is silly. Unless two guitarists want the exact same sound, have the same guitar with identical pickups, same amp with same settings, and the same speaker cabinet.....it makes absolutely no sense to rate cable sound quality.

Just know how capacitance affects the curcuit and shop/cut cables based on that. I usually prefer low capacitance so I use short cables to amp/buffer.

And if you have active pickups you can forget about all of this. Makes no difference as the signal is low impedance/buffered.

Get a spectrum analyser, send a white noise into your cable and you will see what you ears hear.
(record the peaks during 1 minute)
My 2 cents.

That won't work as it needs to be part of the guitar curcuit. These differences only applies to high impedance scenarios, like a passive guitar pickup.

 

[LMO]

No offense intended to f_p or others, but no matter how scientific your testing may have been, we have no way to evaluate the accuracy of your description. No matter the forum or the specific object being compared, if it has something to do with hearing the difference between competing products, there is always at least one post claiming to be able to hear the difference during blind testing. Including with power cables.

 

[funny_polymath]

No offense intended to f_p or others, but no matter how scientific your testing may have been, we have no way to evaluate the accuracy of your description. No matter the forum or the specific object being compared, if it has something to do with hearing the difference between competing products, there is always at least one post claiming to be able to hear the difference during blind testing. Including with power cables.

And???

I could be lying. I could be s shill for Monster. But I'm not...

By the way, I DO think the audible difference in cables is most evident with a high-end mic recording something with highs and/or fast low transients. Cobbler, I hear ya. I would never invalidate your experience and I am glad you don't seek to invalidate mine...

 

[Trazan]

...fast low transients.

Isn't that an oxymoron? 8)

On the subject of the sound of cables for low impedance sources, speaker cables etc....why is it that so many claim to hear differences, yet nobody - on a planet with billions of people - can hear it in a scientifically controlled environment? None. It ought to remind people that they're not very reliable measuring instruments.

And when we do correctly identify differences, we chose to attribute this to patterns that are most obvious, or patterns of choice...rather than accept that there are too many variables involved to know why. Human nature. We're pretty flawed! 8)

 

[plexi59]

The reason I am not sure this is the entire picture, because the most impressive thing about the Monster cables I use is not the slight bit more 'air' - it is the tighter, more distinct low end, and the less blurry transients in that part of the spectrum.

And that (low end) is exactly the part of the frequency spectrum where there's no difference at all. It's physics. There _can't be_ any difference there, because capacitance of the cable is low, so it only measurably affects higher frequencies, and then only if you aren't using active pickups.

 

[funny_polymath]

Isn't that an oxymoron? 8)

On the subject of the sound of cables for low impedance sources, speaker cables etc....why is it that so many claim to hear differences, yet nobody - on a planet with billions of people - can hear it in a scientifically controlled environment? None. It ought to remind people that they're not very reliable measuring instruments.

And when we do correctly identify differences, we chose to attribute this to patterns that are most obvious, or patterns of choice...rather than accept that there are too many variables involved to know why. Human nature. We're pretty flawed! 8)

A low note can be played fast. A series of low notes played fast (especially if they overlap) produces 'fast low transients' - not an oxymoron at all...

 

[funny_polymath]

And that (low end) is exactly the part of the frequency spectrum where there's no difference at all. It's physics. There _can't be_ any difference there, because capacitance of the cable is low, so it only measurably affects higher frequencies, and then only if you aren't using active pickups.

That ASSUMES that the only issue is capacitance which is NOT what Monster's literature sez it is at all. That's what Cliff seize it is, not me. So, you are 'framing the debate' and then saying that your frame disproves my position, which is a tautology.

So: I repeat: if a measuring device fails to detect something that the ears/brain do, then it is either not sensitive enough OR IT IS MEASURING SOMETHING THAT IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PERCEIVED DIFFERENCE. Double-blind studies are pretty fair scientific evidence if done correctly. I did mine correctly. You are entitled to your opinion, but do not try to invalidate my experience based on your criteria.

 

[Zman]

I make my own with Neutrik ends and Mogami wire much cheaper plus I take hot glue gun to cover the solder joints and fill em up and screw the cap on they wont fail at the solder joints ever. I am not a fan of monster cables the only two I bought one a guitar cable it sounded way muffled like the cable was defective from too much capacitance I checked the ends they were fine I ended up giving the cable away. Another a Microphone cable and it picked up alot of noise It was bizare it took it back same thing but yet my generice mic cable same length no issue. I have bought a few cheap bulk pack of mic cables online and they work great different colored too which is nice i cant remember the company.

 

[Rick]

This isn't at all scientific, but I use them because I like using them. The fact is, I don't think about them at all. That's the advantage to me. I feel good that, if there is a difference to be gained by a more refined cable or sturdier connector it is working to my advantage. I do know there certainly isn't a disadvantage (except cost, but can you really make that argument with an Axe Fx in your rack?). And with all the variables to playing, especially in the "one take and done" nature of live playing, I want every advantage (real or imagined) in my corner. That's good enough reason for me.

I mean, really, do we need all the high dollar gear we use to make music? Probably not, but having whatever you think you need is conducive to freeing the mind for more creative tasks. Like arguing about gear. Or just possibly, making a little music. If it matters, get some good cables. If you don't care or think it doesn't matter, use whatever works for you!

 

[Trazan]

A low note can be played fast. A series of low notes played fast (especially if they overlap) produces 'fast low transients' - not an oxymoron at all...

Low "notes" and low frequencies are two different things...low notes may contain plenty of high frequencies.To me a transient is by definition quick and percussive. Low frequencies are slow, I could never define them as transients. Take away all the high frequencies in e.g. a kickdrum and you've got rumble. Or we may just have different definitions of transient 8)