Went Direct for the first time and regretted it...

Vhalen50

Vhalen50

Experienced
Now I can't say it was a perfect scenario. Basically the band we were opening told us we had to use their backline and I wasn't about to use his floor POD HD after creating all my settings, but the soundguy refused to run any extra cables or mic a cabinet. I usually run my axe out1 to a poweramp into my Splawn 4x12. Out2 is my direct signal and he didnt want that, he wanted the stereo XLR...so on the fly i had to remap everything and when it started coming through the monitors and mains it just sounded high and thin....Im assuming that it was from me crafting my presets with my cabinet setup in mind....but I thought it would have been a little more satisfactory.

I guess I could always dupe the presets and tailor them to my FRFR monitors in case of this happening again....or maybe im just bad at making presets?!
 
Yeah, settings that sound good through a guitar cabinet will sound really different through FOH/FRFR. Also if you had mic and cab sims off which probably sounded great running through your cab would normally sound really bad through FRFR. You mentioned Out2 being your direct signal. Have you used that before in conjunction with Out1 going to your cab? If so, how do you have it configured? Or is it just a copy of Out1?
 
Were you using some random IR? If so just make an IR of your Splawn and poweramp with a 57 or whatever mic you usually use. You can always have it on hand stored in the AXEFX for these situations. The IR's sound so close you can barely tell once you make one of your setup and if you are used to your cab and poweramp you will like the IR you made much better than any others.
 
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I used Yek's idea I believe, in putting a split signal with a cab in the loop to the FX loop (Out2) while the rest goes to output1 to my poweramp/cab setup. I never thought about doing the IR of my cab and all that, I can try that. I usually keep Power Amp sims on at all times because of my QSC being a solid state one.
 
You just need to make your own IR. No direct IR is going to sound like your cab and amp unless you create on. Otherwise all your patches will have to be completely redone to compensate for the completely different tone you get from different IR's. I have about 10 different IR's of my 4x12 and 4 different Mic settings. If you usually use a SM57 at a show just put a 57 on your cab where you usually set it on the speaker and make that IR. Then you never have to tweak up your settings and I you do you just can use the high and low cut and the motor drive on the cab block.
 
If you sent them the same signal (with cab sim on) that you normally send to FOH, then your house tone has been high and thin all along, except for the front & center crowd that could hear your cab. What you sent to the board is the same tone you've always sent to the board.

Bottom line: if you feed the house a direct signal, you need to audition that signal through a FRFR system in order to know what it sounds like to the crowd.
 
Ive never gone direct or sent a signal to FOH before. I have two QSC K10's that I usually will check back and forth between my 2 outputs to see the similarities and differences, but the sound guy that night worked with the band for the past year and keeps all the same settings. Im tempted to believe he had some EQ going on his end to compensate for what he thinks "modeling" amps sound like, since that band's guitar player used a floor POD HD.

Regardless, I'm starting from scratch tomorrow and just doing a clean reset and putting on the V7 presets, making an IR of my cab and go from there.
 
I stuck a mic in front of my cab then ran it to one of my EV FRFR's then the other EV was just my direct IR I made of my cab with the mic in the same place. You can barely tell the difference between the two and I mean barely. Let us know how the IR works out after you make one.
 
sounds like you've been bit by the old opening act soundman issue - where that guys job is to make the main act sound good, even if they make you deliberately suck! Been on the receiving end of that while opening for a couple of national acts overseas. It's a less than pleasant experience and causes you to question whether it was you that "really did suck" or your sound was screwed with to make the headliner sound that much better!

While your setup sounds like the source of your problem, it's always better to configure your presets so that you can send OUT1 (XLR) to FOH with no changes and adapt OUT2 for stage monitoring. That's obviously only one possible config, but it saves your butt in most scenarios.
 
s0c9 said:
sounds like you've been bit by the old opening act soundman issue - where that guys job is to make the main act sound good, even if they make you deliberately suck! Been on the receiving end of that while opening for a couple of national acts overseas. It's a less than pleasant experience and causes you to question whether it was you that "really did suck" or your sound was screwed with to make the headliner sound that much better!

While your setup sounds like the source of your problem, it's always better to configure your presets so that you can send OUT1 (XLR) to FOH with no changes and adapt OUT2 for stage monitoring. That's obviously only one possible config, but it saves your butt in most scenarios.
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Im most likely going to keep out1 for FOH just so that soundmen can stop complaining. But ive been dealing with this "opening act soundmen" issue for 2 years! Even if we are the headline act. Not having your own traveling soundman just equals disaster 99.9% of the time.
 
Going FR-FR and ditching the Cab was what I did.
You cannot make a good Fender or Mesa in a Marshall Cab, or vice-versa.
It opens up possibilities such as Acoustic Guitar IRs, etc
I don't understand how you can buy into "Modeling" for the pre-amp, but not for the Amp and Cabinet...
I run Direct all the time and all the Guitarists start with "Your sound is Killer, what Amp do you use?"
Then they're floored to hear its a Modeler straight to the Board...
A good set of FR-FR on stage cranked up and I'm not missing the Amp, in fact I'm loving it more than my old amp because I have Hundreds of amps and effects that I can call up with a press of a button.
 
Kruegmeister said:
Going FR-FR and ditching the Cab was what I did.
You cannot make a good Fender or Mesa in a Marshall Cab, or vice-versa.
It opens up possibilities such as Acoustic Guitar IRs, etc
I don't understand how you can buy into "Modeling" for the pre-amp, but not for the Amp and Cabinet...
I run Direct all the time and all the Guitarists start with "Your sound is Killer, what Amp do you use?"
Then they're floored to hear its a Modeler straight to the Board...
A good set of FR-FR on stage cranked up and I'm not missing the Amp, in fact I'm loving it more than my old amp because I have Hundreds of amps and effects that I can call up with a press of a button.
Click to expand...

I "bought into" modeling for the whole package. What I can't change is that my band doesnt always play venues that have sufficient sound systems that can get over a drum set. That's out of my control and the reason I have always used a cabinet.
 
The signal on your monitors isn't direct from your AxeII, but is a returning signal from the mixing console, yes?
If so, then I wouldn't worry at all. The mixman has enough eqs to design the signal to sound like he needs it for the mix and for the sound of the FOH system wich has it's own response curve. What's needed for the mix is normally much thinner than what you want to hear as a player and you could tweak endlessly, the more lows you dial in, the more they eq it to get the lows out again.
 
For me it was the issue of making presets at low volumes, and therefore they all had way more treble than they actually needed. When cranked up loud there's more treble in your sound, more volume equals more highs. Hope that helps!
 
Vhalen50 said:
I "bought into" modeling for the whole package. What I can't change is that my band doesnt always play venues that have sufficient sound systems that can get over a drum set. That's out of my control and the reason I have always used a cabinet.
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No problem. Get a powered FRFR wedge anyway. When you play a venue that's underpowered, just flip your wedge up on end, and use it as a backline. It'll cover the audience more evely than any guitar cab. And you can still send a signal to FOH.
 
Vhalen50 said:
I "bought into" modeling for the whole package. What I can't change is that my band doesnt always play venues that have sufficient sound systems that can get over a drum set. That's out of my control and the reason I have always used a cabinet.
Click to expand...

I think what he means is "Why a power-amp and 4 X 12 instead of a FRFR Powered box", he has a point about only going half way :)

I have had a similar experience where the sound guy insisted that I plug into the amp on stage that he had all miked up. I finally agreed, but when he wasn't watching, I unplugged the mike cable from the stage-box/snake and plugged my cable in direct from the axe :), He never even worked it out. I even managed to plug another lead into the powered wedge on stage so was running a standard FRFR config.

Some advice though, NEVER NEVER NEVER give them control of your stage volume, you will regret it. By this I mean giving the FOH desk a direct signal and letting them feed your guitar signal back to you via the fold-back.

Cheers S
 
even if you through in some random 4x12 IR and NOT edit your amp settings etc. it shouldn sound too bad.

the sadest point of your story has nothing to do with the axe or its patches: the FOH guy who is too lazy to through you some cables on stage. and more: after pushing u to make up somewhat of a non ideal solution in minimum time he could have atleast used some EQ on the guitar .. beeing also an FOH i know how thin/flubby some guitar sounds come to the console (festival situation and the stage guys had just thrown a sm57 with barely no position in front of the cab ;)) and i know you can always make them atleast descent sounding with some EQ work .. snd point is knowing the axe fx: you re getting a clean signal and you can go much further with the eq than you can go with a real miced up cab ..

so in this case (and i wont use this sencente often ;)): blame the FOH guy and not the axe :D


.. aaand use the tip of schlagdog and just create a good IR of your cab and you re fine in situations like that ;)
 
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