V6 firmware: Time to Release the Monster - Speaker Resonance Page

[simeon]

just tried these settings out on a few of my patches. i will say first, that i do mix cabs, but they're always both near field and i always use mics, so my results may vary from scott's because of this.

i do normally fine tune my tones by tweaking the gain levels in the resonance tab, but i've never messed with the frequencies or Q values before, as i've always assumed that they're optimised and close to the real thing, but i realise now that may not necessarily be the case....

i found scott's settings to have a dramatic effect on the tone on some of my patches. the effect was more noticeable when the default settings were further away from scott's settings (as you'd expect). i didn't always prefer scott's settings, i have to say. my 5153 patch didn't like it at all, but my JCM800 patch felt much improved just by using the low and high settings and leaving the mid at default. there was always a boomyness in my 800 patch that i could never quite get rid of and now i realise it's because the low frequency was probably too high (100hz). now i've lowered it to 85hz, the boom is gone, i still get the thump i need. the top end has been troubling me as well....there's a sparkliness to the 800 which i really like, but achieving that without harshness has been quite tricky for me since 6.0. scott's settings have improved things immensely. i left the mid settings at default, because i felt they scooped out too many mids for me and made the tone a little hollow, but i may experiment further....

i think it's worth experimenting, as different amps will behave differently, but the speaker resonance tab is probably one of the most powerful ways to shape your tone, so definitely give it a try.

kudos to scott for doing the research and publishing his results here. always very educational!

i wonder if cliff has any comment?

sim

 

[yek]

To find you cab's low res freq play (or loop) some single note chuggha chugga at volume and slowly turn up the low res freq, at a certain point you will hear that the cab starts to "shake" the room. You are there.

+1

In my experience you need to play really loud to "hear" the correct resonance frequency.

I find these tips very useful:

1. (by Cliff): Put a Filter block after the Amp block. Set it to Peaking, Q to 5 or so and Gain to 10 dB. Start with a Freq. of 50 Hz. Play some chugga-chugga and slowly adjust the Freq. until you hear and feel the cabinet resonate. Make a note of the frequency. Remove the Filter block and set the Low Resonance to match.
2. Playing the guitar while adjusting the frequency is tedious. Make it easier by using the Looper to record a phrase and repeating it.

Amp block: parameters and dialing in - Axe-Fx II Wiki

 

[painkiller]

Thank you Scott & Jay!

But one thing is interesting. To quote Cliff: "For example, a speaker has a low-frequency resonance. [...]. The Axe-Fx has no way of knowing what that resonant frequency is and defaults to a value that is common for the speakers that are typically used with that amp."

Why can't the low-frequency resonance just be stored in the CAB block? So that the AMP block just have to "look up" that value and just have to put it in the Lo Res Freq field?

 

[Radix Lecti]

Thank you Scott & Jay!

But one thing is interesting. To quote Cliff: "For example, a speaker has a low-frequency resonance. [...]. The Axe-Fx has no way of knowing what that resonant frequency is and defaults to a value that is common for the speakers that are typically used with that amp."

Why can't the low-frequency resonance just be stored in the CAB block? So that the AMP block just have to "look up" that value and just have to put it in the Lo Res Freq field?

My thoughts exactly .....

 

[kfliegner]

Thanks for this, Scott. Out of curiosity, was the low res Q (1.556) a derived number, or simply the result of trial and error?

 

[thekonas]

Scott,
Simply mind-blowing...wow! You and your team have managed to take something that was probably intuitive (yet we have no idea why or how we know) and put some hard math and science behind it. We all appreciate your efforts! The Kracken you have just released is a monumental break-through to be sure, but is likely just the tip of the iceberg of where the Axe can take our music. your discovery is so far above my brain's operating system, that I can only mimic a setting and hope for the best, but I for one, am glad you are on our team!

 

[GiRa]

Why can't the low-frequency resonance just be stored in the CAB block? So that the AMP block just have to "look up" that value and just have to put it in the Lo Res Freq field?

The impedance curve affects how the poweramp works and having this curve in the amp block also helps the guitar cab people.

 

[dschaaf]

I do not know.

Try it and let me know. I'd guess that if you followed the same thought pattern and used your own cab's resonance in the settings that it would be absolutely ideal... but I don't know.

If you actually have the cab, then you could measure the actual impedance curves exactly. I have to think that'd be a 'best practices' approach to this.

Thanks SO much Scott!

I use both a pwramp/real cabs setup and a FRFR setup with EV ELX112P's.....question is, does the speaker tab still have impact on tone when no cab block is selected and you are just using real cabs?

Thanks,
D

 

[guitarzpt]

I wonder what's the theory behind the +10hz thing?

 

[prometh]

Hmm, so you're saying that your settings are better than the default for any speaker?

 

[Scott Peterson]

Awesome - I love when there's a new Scott post.

Scott - much thanks for your efforts to keep pushing forward and breaking new ground. Your presentation and attitude towards it all is great.

A few questions:
- Since only the Low Res Freq setting is speaker-dependent in your method above, am I to take it that these are catch-all settings that work best for all speakers? Is any further tweaking on a per-speaker basis warranted, or do you feel these values work really good regardless of the speaker used and it's not worth the tweaking time to worry with doing more?

- What differences in sound compared to the stock settings should I be listening for? I've only been able to work on it with headphones so far. Is it mostly a "feel thing" at full volume? On the patch I was working with, your settings seemed to sound a bit smoother/less harsh in the high end than the stock ones, but I haven't spent much time to really compare yet.

- I'd assume Cliff went through a lot of work as well to arrive at the default Axe settings - what are your thoughts on the differences in your settings vs. the defaults? Just a personal preference or do you think yours make more sense for defaults for certain reasons? (Not trying to start anything up with this question - just thought your answer here would provide some additional insight).

(I see your NF is at -6db now - maybe soon you'll be like Jay and dial it out of there altogether).

Thanks again Scott - you're the man!

Essentially these are simplified starting points. You will change them, if you care to. You might NOT care to. You might prefer stock settings. I am saying that gigging this has proved my theory; and with the guidance of Jay (whom is an expert on these matters) set me on the correct path by laying out his formula to dial in that speaker resonance block. I've always tweaked it, but it was akin to a blind man stumbling about on an ice rink.

You'll hear and feel it right away in the low end (less 'boxy' and constipated); mid's (will shine through without all the EQ); and highs (lots of cut and presence without all the sizzle and fizz). You need volume; then it comes alive. Headphones are a poor substitute for volume... you use them when you have to, not because you want to.

thanks scott,
would you maybe share some of your now in this sense tweaked fender, vox, marshall, and higher gain presets for all of us, who feel too stupid to do it themselves...;-)?
thanks!

The idea is that you use these sorts of things to teach yourself; I will be sharing presets once the Axe-Exchange is open because I can/will update them there once it is open. I can't be following around different threads and forums when I change something just to update them. Trust me, it's turning some knobs and/or settings. Anyone can do it.

just tried these settings out on a few of my patches. i will say first, that i do mix cabs, but they're always both near field and i always use mics, so my results may vary from scott's because of this.

i do normally fine tune my tones by tweaking the gain levels in the resonance tab, but i've never messed with the frequencies or Q values before, as i've always assumed that they're optimised and close to the real thing, but i realise now that may not necessarily be the case....

i found scott's settings to have a dramatic effect on the tone on some of my patches. the effect was more noticeable when the default settings were further away from scott's settings (as you'd expect). i didn't always prefer scott's settings, i have to say. my 5153 patch didn't like it at all, but my JCM800 patch felt much improved just by using the low and high settings and leaving the mid at default. there was always a boomyness in my 800 patch that i could never quite get rid of and now i realise it's because the low frequency was probably too high (100hz). now i've lowered it to 85hz, the boom is gone, i still get the thump i need. the top end has been troubling me as well....there's a sparkliness to the 800 which i really like, but achieving that without harshness has been quite tricky for me since 6.0. scott's settings have improved things immensely. i left the mid settings at default, because i felt they scooped out too many mids for me and made the tone a little hollow, but i may experiment further....

i think it's worth experimenting, as different amps will behave differently, but the speaker resonance tab is probably one of the most powerful ways to shape your tone, so definitely give it a try.

kudos to scott for doing the research and publishing his results here. always very educational!

i wonder if cliff has any comment?

sim

On the post 6.x JCM 800 - turn the bright on, and presence at 0.00. Just try it.

You are forgetting (maybe?) that this is NOT an Graphic EQ, it's not a parametric EQ, it's not EQ. It's how the speaker and amp work together. It does effect 'how' the amp reacts with the speaker and affect the frequency response, but you are NOT cutting 'mids' with changing this control.

I doubt Cliff will comment because these are parameters he left exposed for us to work with. If he commented on every parameter we all change about.... he'd be a pretty long winded guy. LOL!

Thank you Scott & Jay!

But one thing is interesting. To quote Cliff: "For example, a speaker has a low-frequency resonance. [...]. The Axe-Fx has no way of knowing what that resonant frequency is and defaults to a value that is common for the speakers that are typically used with that amp."

Why can't the low-frequency resonance just be stored in the CAB block? So that the AMP block just have to "look up" that value and just have to put it in the Lo Res Freq field?

Because you can use multiple cabs, stereo cabs (with different speakers) and guys use the amps with conventional power amps and speakers. The impedance curve changes per specific cab; there is no universal setting or curve that truly and accurately matches any given array of variables any owner uses.

Thanks for this, Scott. Out of curiosity, was the low res Q (1.556) a derived number, or simply the result of trial and error?

Came from Jay's suggested starting points. Worked for me, kept it.

The impedance curve affects how the poweramp works and having this curve in the amp block also helps the guitar cab people.

Yes - totally on the button.

Thanks SO much Scott!

I use both a pwramp/real cabs setup and a FRFR setup with EV ELX112P's.....question is, does the speaker tab still have impact on tone when no cab block is selected and you are just using real cabs?

Thanks,
D

See GiRa's comment above.

 

[Scott Peterson]

I wonder what's the theory behind the +10hz thing?

My theory from looking at dozens and dozens of curves and many sites (which I've quoted at least twice in this thread) where they show the effect an enclosure has on the resonant frequency. I then just trusted my ear and the +10Hz was a pretty good starting point. You might vary it; feel free. These are not set in stone, they are starting points. Trust your ears.

Hmm, so you're saying that your settings are better than the default for any speaker?

Hmmm, no, that is not what I am saying. Have you tried this yet? I am saying the stock curves sound great and I prefer these. What do you think?

 

[vAmp]

Why can't the low-frequency resonance just be stored in the CAB block? So that the AMP block just have to "look up" that value and just have to put it in the Lo Res Freq field?

Who says it can't?

Some reasons it maybe won't:
- The info doesn't really belong in the Cab Block in a way. It belongs with the Cab IR's, but to store it there might be impossible or require losing precious resources. You're almost talking about a database system here. Have you ever noticed how many files are installed on your PC for programs that come with that?
- This is based on a system and on opinons [though not by the least worthy people]. But IMO, the Axe better not follow every opinion piece.
- You can make the adjustments and save the Cab blocks as presets.
- Not everyone will agree on these numbers and change stuff anyway. Possibly Jay won't even agree and may find this system a halfway solution, but at least better than the default(?).
- ...

And TYVM, Scott 8)

On the post 6.x JCM 800 - turn the bright on, and presence at 0.00. Just try it.

Do you mean v7 is already being beta-tested...?

 

[Stereospace]

Im still in the trial period for the axefx, finding my way so to speak, but this has defo helped! - what it does is create a more balanced setup, seems to help more importantly between switching from neck to bridge pickups on my tele, - without having to strictly alter the EQ.

So good job, Ive still got to find my way more, but this what you shared is a bloody great place to start, and for that I thank you for your time.

Also.. (this is really dub I know) - but there is also an EQ section within the Amp settings, you can get similar results with using that too?

 

[prometh]

How different would the settings be for, say, a 1960B with T75s? Just the LF Resonance would change, or..? I haven't yet tried your settings.

 

[Tamerz]

To find you cab's low res freq play (or loop) some single note chuggha chugga at volume and slowly turn up the low res freq, at a certain point you will hear that the cab starts to "shake" the room. You are there.
A closed back 4x12" usually has a low res freq between 105Hz and 115Hz.

This seems more like it will give you a resonant frequency of the room (and things in it) more than it will the speaker cab.

 

[VegaBaby]

How different would the settings be for, say, a 1960B with T75s? Just the LF Resonance would change, or..? I haven't yet tried your settings.

that would depend on what speaker you're having in your 1960b. if it's V30s, checking the Celestion site, its Resonance Freq is 75hz and the T75 is 85hz. if I understand Scott's concept correctly, that would be your difference. adding 10 would get you to 85(V30) and 95(T75).

 

[Scott Peterson]

Who says it can't?

Some reasons it maybe won't:
- The info doesn't really belong in the Cab Block in a way. It belongs with the Cab IR's, but to store it there might be impossible or require losing precious resources. You're almost talking about a database system here. Have you ever noticed how many files are installed on your PC for programs that come with that?
- This is based on a system and on opinons [though not by the least worthy people]. But IMO, the Axe better not follow every opinion piece.
- You can make the adjustments and save the Cab blocks as presets.
- Not everyone will agree on these numbers and change stuff anyway. Possibly Jay won't even agree and may find this system a halfway solution, but at least better than the default(?).
- ...

And TYVM, Scott 8)


Do you mean v7 is already being beta-tested...?

The settings are for 6.02 - it's how I run the JCM800. MV at 5.00, Gain is 6.00 Bass is at 5.00 and Mid/Treb are at 10.00. Presence is at 0.00 but the bright switch is on. Crank it up, try the cab setup as detailed and tell me what you think. I love it.

Im still in the trial period for the axefx, finding my way so to speak, but this has defo helped! - what it does is create a more balanced setup, seems to help more importantly between switching from neck to bridge pickups on my tele, - without having to strictly alter the EQ.

So good job, Ive still got to find my way more, but this what you shared is a bloody great place to start, and for that I thank you for your time.

Also.. (this is really dub I know) - but there is also an EQ section within the Amp settings, you can get similar results with using that too?

There is an EQ page inside the amp block. It works... like an EQ. The speaker resonance settings are *not* an EQ curve though - it looks like one, but it is not.

How different would the settings be for, say, a 1960B with T75s? Just the LF Resonance would change, or..? I haven't yet tried your settings.

Try my settings. Look up that speaker on the Celestion site. Find the Fs number; add 10Hz.

I don't share presets when I do this on purpose because the goal - selfish or not - is to have people teach themselves how to listen to these things. You can't judge it or form an opinion until you try it at volume. Change it up, check it out and then post your opinion. You might like it, you might not. I am confident you just might. Means nothing if you do not check it for yourself though. Trust me.

 

[Stereospace]

All we need now is someone brave enough to post a list of all the speakers hz's here (thats included with the Axe) - then we can use that as a ballpark
Hint hint scott!
*cough*

 

[rsf1977]

hey scott how would you deal with a multi type speaker cab like i have v30s and T75s in the same 4x12?