V6 firmware: Time to Release the Monster - Speaker Resonance Page

[groovenut]

Doesn't the 'baked in' profiling technique of capturing a great sounding amp+cab as one profile make this all unnecessary??

Profiling only provides a static highly defined EQ. Anyone who has tried the TM block knows the results can often be less than perfect. To get truly convincing results you have to work to make the model and EQ (IR) dynamically interact with each other like the amp you are trying to emulate. The Speaker Resonance page is the place to focus to achieve great results.

 

[DieSchmalle]

Perhaps not quite the same but while I was playing along with a backing track, I found I needed some more mids.
Adjusting the amp's mid control or even EQ'ing didn't do the trick.
Raising the mid res level however did!!
I'll definitely have a look at this method.

Scott's speaker tab settings essentially reduce the low and high frequencies. Guess what's left!

 

[yek]

Speaker Resonance Frequency of 100w Scumback M75 = 75Hz (free air).

 

[Stratoblaster]

Great thread, and thanks to Scott and Jay for their insights and work!

I measured the low resonant frequency of my 1982 Marshall 4x12 with G12-65 speakers a while ago and the resonant frequency is 115Hz.

I'm going to try to find time to measure the high frequency peak, Q of both peaks, and the overall impedance across the range since this thread has made me curious...

 

[iaresee]

Captured the text: Scott Peterson: Tips and Tricks - Axe-Fx II Wiki

I'll get the images later tonight. And some of the follow up Q&A that happened.

 

[GiRa]

This seems more like it will give you a resonant frequency of the room (and things in it) more than it will the speaker cab.

I'm not too good at English I meant "you will hear that the cab starts to resonate moving way more air".

 

[GiRa]

G65 - 75Hz
G12H - 85Hz
G12M - 75Hz
V30 - 75Hz
C12N - 90Hz
Blue - 75Hz
T75 - 85Hz

Add 10Hz and that's your starting point.

Keep in mind that a closed back cab rises the frequency more than an open back one.

My Marshall 4x12" loaded with V30s have a low res freq of 113Hz.
I tried with a Mesa 4x12" and it was 110Hz.
I tried a custom closed back 4x12" (V30s) and it was 107Hz.

 

[willowdale]

This is my exact response to your same word-for-word post from TGP: What seems 'no-brainer' to you assumes too much to work in realty across the wide spectrum of guitarists and musicians IMHO .

Scott, if a product like I describe was to be released, the Axe & KPA would stop selling immediately!! LOL

And your deep editing tweaks would still be an available option for the IR lovers.

I don't know too many guitarists that complain " This perfectly matched factory tube head & cab just works too great together right out the box". lol

I defy anyone that reads the post of my description of what I want in a modeler/profiler, to tell me they would have a problem with any of it.

Take the best of the Axe-II + KPA and put it in a product & both units will stop selling.

AXE-III or KPA-II perhaps??

 

[Scott Peterson]

Scott, if a product like I describe was to be released, the Axe & KPA would stop selling immediately!! LOL

And your deep editing tweaks would still be an available option for the IR lovers.

I don't know too many guitarists that complain " This perfectly matched factory tube head & cab just works too great together right out the box". lol

I defy anyone that reads the post of my description of what I want in a modeler/profiler, to tell me they would have a problem with any of it.

Take the best of the Axe-II + KPA and put it in a product & both units will stop selling.

AXE-III or KPA-II perhaps??

I don't think any product will stop selling unless the manufacturer stops selling it or the public stops buying it.

Too much variablity out there between guitarists to assume your idealized product will ever be a reality. Be great, but at the same time I don't want to sound like a Jazz guy or a Metal guy might like to sound. A box that homogenizes everything wouldn't be that 'ideal' to me.

'Take the best of the Axe-II + KPA' is speculative. Here's the way I see it - What happens with something new coming out on the market in the future doesn't much matter to me right now... I have a gig this weekend. What I'm using for a gig in three years doesn't much matter to me right now.

Would there be a market? Sure. Does that have anything to do with the topic on this thread? No.

 

[Fro]

Keep in mind that a closed back cab rises the frequency more than an open back one.

My Marshall 4x12" loaded with V30s have a low res freq of 113Hz.
I tried with a Mesa 4x12" and it was 110Hz.
I tried a custom closed back 4x12" (V30s) and it was 107Hz.

I know this whole process isn't an "EQ" thing. For what it's worth though, I always found that I had to boost 109Hz in an EQ block for my Marshall Jubilee 2x12 G12T-75's in order to get it to "oomph" like it did with a real head. Is this related to the res freq? I would play and move the EQ frequency back and forth until it resonated, and I always landed on 109Hz for that cabinet.

My 4x12 with Greenbacks had a similar reaction at about 109Hz. So how would that translate, if at all?

 

[willowdale]

Too much variablity out there between guitarists to assume your idealized product will ever be a reality. Be great, but at the same time I don't want to sound like a Jazz guy or a Metal guy might like to sound. A box that homogenizes everything wouldn't be that 'ideal' to me.

Don't know what you mean by the "homogenizes" statement, because the product I describe would essentially be best parts Axe-II + KPA + more!!

Anyway, I am going to try the suggestions you have brought to light in this thread. I always appreciate what you bring to the table regarding the Axe + FRFR.

I just hope some of these "deep editing" suggestions won't be needed in the near future!!

 

[youngmic]

Fro - thanks for that man. Totally appreciate it. You rock!

So is all this just preference or is there something magical that happens with the IR at the resonence freq spec'd by the manufacturer? For instance, what if I set the res freq for Celestion G12M at 95Hz instead of 85Hz? Would I be missing some of this magic in the interaction of the model and the IR itself? Or is this truly just preference and a attempt to emulate the output of the real speaker?

Also, in the discussion about finding the resonance frequency of a guitar cab, the assumption seems to be to disregard any spec'd resonance frequency and use your ears to determine that of the cab, not the speakers per se. How does this translate to FRFR? Is there any relationship to the resonance of the FRFR itself? Is there value in considering the resonance frequency of a given cab over it's component speakers in an FRFR context?

 

[youngmic]

My theory from looking at dozens and dozens of curves and many sites (which I've quoted at least twice in this thread) where they show the effect an enclosure has on the resonant frequency. I then just trusted my ear and the +10Hz was a pretty good starting point. You might vary it; feel free. These are not set in stone, they are starting points. Trust your ears.



Hmmm, no, that is not what I am saying. Have you tried this yet? I am saying the stock curves sound great and I prefer these. What do you think?

I thnk this answers my question about the cabinet. That's what the +10 is for. Correct?

 

[Scott Peterson]

So is all this just preference or is there something magical that happens with the IR at the resonence freq spec'd by the manufacturer? For instance, what if I set the res freq for Celestion G12M at 95Hz instead of 85Hz? Would I be missing some of this magic in the interaction of the model and the IR itself? Or is this truly just preference and a attempt to emulate the output of the real speaker?

Also, in the discussion about finding the resonance frequency of a guitar cab, the assumption seems to be to disregard any spec'd resonance frequency and use your ears to determine that of the cab, not the speakers per se. How does this translate to FRFR? Is there any relationship to the resonance of the FRFR itself? Is there value in considering the resonance frequency of a given cab over it's component speakers in an FRFR context?

Preference and striving for more accuracy. All is presented as IMHO and YMMV. Always! You are missing nothing by altering the resonant Low frequency; you are just changing it so it makes you happy and feels/sounds right. Trust your own ears. The rest of the curve is essential to making my little method work though. Don't ignore it (note how far down in level the high changes and also where it starts it's rise... also the dip in the mid frequency resonance is key to getting the natural curve from the low resonant peak). It all matters IMHO.

I do all this from the Direct to FOH/FRFR standpoint. The resonant peak of a speaker inside of a cab is specific to that particular cab. The same speakers in a different sized cab will be different. The same speakers in an open backed cab will be different. Everything effects everything - a speaker cab is part of a system. The speaker itself is not in a vacuum... which is good. The key is creating a more accurate (IMHO) speaker resonance curve to better match what speaker IR you are using.

In my method of NF/FF it just sounds right and feels right to me at volume. Better than ever and that sort of thing really gets me pumped up to share what I've found. Lots of folks help me on my journey through all this stuff and IMHO - it's just giving back to everyone to share it with all the credit rightly due to them for helping me.

I can dial up sounds I like on most any box; this box makes me happiest. Beyond all the other stuff I do or do not do with the box, this has been particularly exciting and rewarding for me... so I share it.

I thnk this answers my question about the cabinet. That's what the +10 is for. Correct?

Yes.

 

[youngmic]

Don't know what you mean by the "homogenizes" statement, because the product I describe would essentially be best parts Axe-II + KPA + more!!

Anyway, I am going to try the suggestions you have brought to light in this thread. I always appreciate what you bring to the table regarding the Axe + FRFR.

I just hope some of these "deep editing" suggestions won't be needed in the near future!!

What I find very interesting is that this "deep editing" is pretty much analogous to what a custom amp designer has to do with his amps and cabs. When you purchase a Divided by 13 or a Bogner, you are going with what those designers liked and offered as the best. If you like that, very cool. I still love the sound of the TOL 100. The Axe Fx, to some degree, into that role. I think your scenario might just as well be played out by sound desingers/axe fx "programmers" offering premium presets, etc. It's like buying a Prophet 5 and hiring a sound designer to build your patches. You could do it yourself, but you can also pay someone to do it. Now the truth is most of us don't have that kind of money (and I am in that "us"). So we have to choose whether or not the overhead is worth the benefit. This paradigm is identical in the keyboard realm. Have you ever seen the parameters available to you in some of the more advanced orchestral samples or even acoustic piano samples? One of Roland's units even lets you change things like string, hammer, and soundboard material and length.

Or you can by the Yamaha CP. Which is what I think you're asking for here. It will probably come eventually.

 

[Manny Fufish]

It's interesting because in the past I have had real heads and real cabs which both sounded great but not together. ("did we just have a reeses's moment?") Changing out the speakers (or trying different cabs) until you find a match which works best with a particular head. Some heads love V-30's, some get kinda' muddy from my findings. My EVH III head loves my EVH III cab but not my Lynch Box cab so much... I am now wondering if the Low Resonance Frequency of the Output Transformer just didn't coincide with the Speaker Resonance of that particular speaker... Lynch Box Head sounds great through the Lynch Box cab as expected... Chocolate and Peanut Butter if you're old enough to get that reference . Maybe the Default settings out of the box ARE what comes from the real world amps which into certain speaker could cause similar real world problems... The Axe allows you the flexability to actually fix this in a way you can't easily do with real gear.

Someone like Cliff could tell us for sure if these default values are in fact, what the head would produce and if there is any connection to my contention, but that's how I'm currenly seeing all of this... Thanks again Scott, will be trying these settings tonight, using your presets as a starting point as a matter of fact!

 

[TheGoatLord]

Well I finally go to try this out full blown and wow. This was the last piece to the puzzle. My guitar tone is just screaming now! All that and there is a huge pretense tracking now too! Everything is full and lush w/o any boom or piercing highs. Thanks again so much Scott!

 

[rsf1977]

Here is the Free Standing Resonance for some of the speakers I use the most from the IR's in the Axe-FX:

G65 - 75Hz
G12H - 85Hz
G12M - 75Hz
V30 - 75Hz
C12N - 90Hz
Blue - 75Hz
T75 - 85Hz

Add 10Hz and that's your starting point.



Well, I'd start at 85Hz and move it around till it sounded right. I check while I'm playing at about +90db. When it sounds and feels right? I stop.

Hey scott, would it be helpful to determine a the mixed speaker 4x12s resonant frequency by downloading a frequency tone generator phone app and hooking up to my power amp to sweep the frequencies until the cab resonates? Will that work?

 

[acbarros]

Awesome!

Scotts always spreading the light over here. Thank you!

 

[Scott Peterson]

Hey scott, would it be helpful to determine a the mixed speaker 4x12s resonant frequency by downloading a frequency tone generator phone app and hooking up to my power amp to sweep the frequencies until the cab resonates? Will that work?

Ask Jay on TGP. I think it'd be helpful, but what you'd be best served doing - IMHO - is trying it, and then telling us what you hear.

It's a pretty simple process to use my starting point formula and then simply scroll the value up as you play. Stop when it sounds best and there you are.