• We would like to remind our members that this is a privately owned, run and supported forum. You are here at the invitation and discretion of the owners. As such, rules and standards of conduct will be applied that help keep this forum functioning as the owners desire. These include, but are not limited to, removing content and even access to the forum.

    Please give yourself a refresher on the forum rules you agreed to follow when you signed up.

V6 firmware: Time to Release the Monster - Speaker Resonance Page

3Dhuman

Inspired
I did not read the entire thread, no. It's 13 pages and I didn't have time to read through it. It's entirely possible my question was answered in the thread, sorry.

Now, the reason I asked the question is not that I'm looking for a "Sound in your head" button. In fact, I would imagine a lot of people don't agree with the choices I make in my patches and I hardly ever use other member's patches. To think you can simply plug into somebody else' settings and sound like them is a fool's errand. The reason I asked is because I haven't got the slightest clue on how the Ownhammer IR's are mixed with the "special recipe" that's in the Axe FX II. It's not a simple single-cab IR. For all I know, it could be 15 IR's mixed together. The reason for asking is to get some sort of bearing on where other people are starting with these types of IR's. I don't know enough about it to know if mixing IR's will affect this parameter, but I would assume that it does, though it could be negligible.

As with any other new parameter, I try to listen while tweaking to figure out how it changes the sound and then decide whether it's desirable or not. Unfortunately, this parameter has me scratching my head as I can't quite figure out what I'm listening for or how it interacts with the other settings.

Edit: Thank you Scott for answering. I appreciate the help.
Good point. I guess I thought that without knowing what kind of 'blend' the Axe IR's actually are, the only place to start would be from the published Fs numbers from a typical V30 speaker.

Anyway, I certainly didn't need to be so snarky with my reply. Sorry (as a Canadian, I can't let this rest until I apologize). No hard feelings...
 

javajunkie

Moderator
Moderator
Hi Sean,

I just read the quote from Jay you posted. Then I read it again . Then again :lol

It makes me think , how much of what we think we hearing when we tweak these settings is placebo effect?

As Scott says , the journey and all is fun, and I am enjoying it too.

Just wondering?
It is pretty apparent. especially messing with the mid res.
 

skintone1

Inspired
LOL - I can stand back, hit one chord... let it ring, play some single notes... and you KNOW it's not placebo. ;) :D
Ha ha,
Well maybe " placebo" was the wrong term to use.
What I am getting at is that these results are probably not reproducible from person to person, and so each player needs to tweak the parameters for themselves to suit their ears, their playing feel, and for each amp and cab set, and probably again for each live situation ...

Scott, I realize you have already said all this before.
 

symphx

Fractal Fanatic
FWIW, i've been coming around. I do miss some of the clarity of stock settings, but I've since started building settings from scratch and there is something to be said about these new curves. Does anyone have a G12M Resonance curve? I'd like to see how it compares to the C12N.

BTW, started with these resonance cruves and made my first tonematch last night. Never done that before, but I could tell the "grip" of the midrange with the new curves helped the overall end result:

Eruption Tonematch
(i'm not a van halen guy, and use a less paul, so I can't pull off that killer shredding stuff)
nice tm got the patch?
 

rtcook

Inspired
Scott,

Do you have a graphical representation of your numbers? Seems I read the Axe-Edit graph is not correct and also not the same as what the Axe II shows. But, is the Axe II graph accurate? Tyler matched the Jensen P12N graph exactly but obviously it did not corrolate. It would be great to see if your numbers match that more natural curve that is represented in most of the speaker impedance resonance curves on the web. Graphically, your numbers show a huge tail off on the high end compared to the Jensen P12N graph in Axe-Edit. The Jensen graph gradually rises after 1K to 20K. Most of the of graphs cited are cut off at 1K and you can't see what's happening after 1K. All I'm getting at here is it would be great to be able to match the speaker impedance resonance curves in Axe-Edit or on the Axe II itself. Wonder if this is something on the wish list to be corrected?

BTW, I tried your numbers and there is an improvement with my setup. Would love to apply this further.

Great work as always!

Roger
 

Gamedojo

Power User
nice tm got the patch?
Not yet, that was just an experiment in tonematching. Trying to wrap my head around the best method. Seems like volume, HOW you play and if or if not you are using a cab block seems to effect it quite a bit.
 

GiRa

Power User
Do you have a graphical representation of your numbers?
You'll notice in the Axe-Fx that the curve does not look like the graphs. The graphs increase smoothly whereas the Axe-Fx has a peaking response. That's because the speaker impedance reacts with the transformer and power tubes to form a higher-order network. The general rule-of-thumb is to use your ears. Lower the frequency and Q to get more midrange. Increase them to get more "chime".
BTW we are working with very approssimative graphics here, setting the numbers by ear or with an educated use-the-source-Jay is way better.
 

Scott Peterson

Global Moderator
Moderator
Scott,

Do you have a graphical representation of your numbers? Seems I read the Axe-Edit graph is not correct and also not the same as what the Axe II shows. But, is the Axe II graph accurate? Tyler matched the Jensen P12N graph exactly but obviously it did not corrolate. It would be great to see if your numbers match that more natural curve that is represented in most of the speaker impedance resonance curves on the web. Graphically, your numbers show a huge tail off on the high end compared to the Jensen P12N graph in Axe-Edit. The Jensen graph gradually rises after 1K to 20K. Most of the of graphs cited are cut off at 1K and you can't see what's happening after 1K. All I'm getting at here is it would be great to be able to match the speaker impedance resonance curves in Axe-Edit or on the Axe II itself. Wonder if this is something on the wish list to be corrected?

BTW, I tried your numbers and there is an improvement with my setup. Would love to apply this further.

Great work as always!

Roger
BTW we are working with very approssimative graphics here, setting the numbers by ear or with an educated use-the-source-Jay is way better.
He meant approximate and he's right.

The Axe-FX does not have the graph labeled; it's also small and doesn't tell you the baseline either. You can guess from the settings; and Jay is the one that helped it make sense to me; he shared one of his presets (that I will not share) and that was the window into developing this for me. The Axe-Edit graphs are rough approximations on top of that. Don't get too caught up in that. Jay did the scaling and used his expertise to help show me the approximate settings to start In order to dial up, you need to understand what you are doing and then trust your ears to hear it. That takes some education.

I've shared links and asked folks to do a search on "Speaker Impedance Curve" for themselves. You simply have to teach yourself.

An idealized and 'natural' curve for the speaker looks like this:

spadres.gif

***IMPORTANT*** - this is NOT a frequency response curve. This is a impedance response. The distinction is essential to understanding this. I am guessing the confusion is that folks are confusing this for a frequency curve; it is not EQ. It is speaker impedance. It is how the power amp/transformer/speaker system will react to the tone through frequency. This is the dynamic aspect of power amp modeling working with linear speaker IR's. Every speaker has essentially an almost identical curve; though there are *important* variations if you look at the manufacturer's charts. The biggest is that the low end resonance frequency setting varies from speaker to speaker.

When you then look at what the amp block settings represent; you are going to learn (hopefully) that speakers react through the transformer with the power section (tubes) dynamically. That's the key to the 'feel' and 'response' of the amp - and it's physics, it's reality, it's how tube amps and speaker cabs work as a system. The Axe-FX handles this all internally, but it is essential that we set it accordingly. No stock curve in the end will be able to work for everyone in every situation.

***IMPORTANT*** - these are not universal settings for every amp, every speaker cab. I have over simplified it in order to present it in a way that folks can try, and begin their own education and understanding in order to harness and set these according to their own tastes and their own goals. I want to present this as a method/process - NOT a destination.

We will not all end up with the same curves, nor the same tones. If I wanted to sound like everyone else, I'd buy a toaster. I don't want a toaster, I want the insanely and fully stocked kitchen. ;)

In the end, we work with the tools we have on hand right now. You trust your ears and you have to dig in and work with your tools in order to fully utilize the power you have in this box. Even if you only dial up and use 3 tones total in real life on a gig, make those three tones all about you, your inspiration, your creation and your vehicle to play and create music that entertains, engages and makes the actual gift we all have here - music - worthwhile. Life is too short to have bad tone, or use someone else's tone.

Sorry to run off on a tangent. Just wanted to express the context. It's not just tracing a graph; it's starting somewhere and then having that starting point work relative to your other settings and then customizing from there. Trust your ears for the end result, no matter what the settings or parameters look like.

:D

/soapbox
 

greiswig

Power User
Scott Peterson said:
***IMPORTANT*** - this is NOT a frequency response curve. This is a impedance response.

/soapbox
The other thing is, if I understand right, that the low frequency impedance peak is also liable to be confused with the free air resonance peak. For at least some speakers, I can't find impedance curves published. Does anyone know if there is a correlation between that impedance peak F and the resonance peak, the latter of which is commonly published?
 

Scott Peterson

Global Moderator
Moderator
The other thing is, if I understand right, that the low frequency impedance peak is also liable to be confused with the free air resonance peak. For at least some speakers, I can't find impedance curves published. Does anyone know if there is a correlation between that impedance peak F and the resonance peak, the latter of which is commonly published?
That's partially due to what I'm proposing for folks to start the process of finding what they like.

I am using the fS number to start the tweaking the Low Resonance Freq from adding +10Hz drawn from looking at dozens of speaker's specs and noting that it's generally - grossly oversimplified, but effective - +10Hz higher (***OR MORE). That's confusing the issue, but the correlation seems to deliver satisfactory (IMHO) results.

At the very least, it offers a starting point to begin the process. After that, trust your ears. :)
 

greiswig

Power User
Scott Peterson said:
That's partially due to what I'm proposing for folks to start the process of finding what they like.

I am using the fS number to start the tweaking the Low Resonance Freq from adding +10Hz drawn from looking at dozens of speaker's specs and noting that it's generally - grossly oversimplified, but effective - +10Hz higher (***OR MORE). That's confusing the issue, but the correlation seems to deliver satisfactory (IMHO) results.

At the very least, it offers a starting point to begin the process. After that, trust your ears. :)
Gotcha. So in theory, the impedance peak IS related, and should be somewhat higher. Thanks, Scott! Appreciate this clarification.
 

Sidivan

Fractal Fanatic
In the end, we work with the tools we have on hand right now. You trust your ears and you have to dig in and work with your tools in order to fully utilize the power you have in this box. Even if you only dial up and use 3 tones total in real life on a gig, make those three tones all about you, your inspiration, your creation and your vehicle to play and create music that entertains, engages and makes the actual gift we all have here - music - worthwhile. Life is too short to have bad tone, or use someone else's tone.
Where's the "Love" button? "Like" doesn't quite do this justice.
 
Top Bottom