Using My Axe II with In Ear System. Could use some advice..sorry kind of off topic

boltrecords

boltrecords

Fractal Fanatic
hello all.

ive been using my axe II with my in ear system (Shure psm200) for the last two gigs. i have to say that i love the flexibility of using in ears and since we run our own mixes on stage i can always control my in ear levels and never have many problems when it comes to hearing my self or others in the band.

One issue im having is that the sound quality of the in ears are pretty terrible as far as hearing my guitar. fyi, my ear buds are custom molds called Live Wires Triple Drivers. The Official LiveWires - Custom Fit In-Ear Earphones. not exactly low quality but not ultimate ears quality either.
i have this awesome sounding rig and then i have to hear it through the small headphones which makes me feel like the sound of my guitar sucks, which isnt true when heard from the house PA.

my question is, when it comes to upgrading, would i be better going with a new in ear system, perhaps a stereo system that is more high end. or should i go with some really high end kick ass ear buds.
which would make the biggest difference? is it even possible to get that accurate clearity and "Bigness" through ear buds? i assume it must since even heavy bands like metallica are using in ears now

i also notice that having our two guitars running through the in ear system makes it kind of hard to distinguish the two apart. would a stereo ear system help with this. for example, panning the two guitars a bit.

Any advice or recommendations with this would really help me out.


thanks so much
 
I'm no expert, but this is what I have learned. Running an IEM system in mono is stacking the instruments on top of one another and therefore hard to distinguish. Running in stereo is better, placing them in the mix with some space between them helps the mix not to be so confusing. I have tried many different iem's several different types all custom molds, and still didn't like the way my guitar sounded. You can improve the sound by placing a stage mic or room mic and bringing some of that in to your iems will help them from sounding so sterile. Some just get used to them. I spoke on the phone to the guy that ran sound for Stele Dan and they use some very expensive processing gear just for the iem mix. He said it's doable, but it expensive. Didn't care to invest that much on the iems, so I use a small powered monitor at my feet, in the end, Im much happier. YMMV
 
I run IEMs and I'm very happy with the sound I have. I'm using PSM 900s with Shure 425 earphones.
My suggestions start with first deciding whether the buds are good or crap.
Try a gig going wired. Meaning tether yourself and bypass the PSM200 altogether and see if the 200 actually delivers or not. You'll know whether it's the buds or the wireless part of your system that sucks. From there you can decide which to upgrade.
I can tell you that running in stereo does make a big difference.
Also, as ckfahl says, having some of the live sound mixed in gives more space and makes the IEM experience far better.
Lastly for this post, plug your ears straight into the Axe and check out the sound you get. Happy? If not, go for a better IEM system model.
 
Triple-driver buds are GREAT.
Your trouble is lying within the mono mix.
It makes a WORLD of difference. ---We're not just talking about left or right alone, I mean that your clarity and flexibility within the mix is 50% disabled! That's a percentage I was never happy with.
As for the bigness, I play with cheap, single-driver buds through a stereo receiver, and the fractal sounds booming (huge and great).
Patzag has some great suggestions too!
 
Checkout JH Audio

I use the JH-16 pros live with the Axe Fx II and it sounds great! The IEM's have 16 drivers and really give a lot of definition to the actual sound. Perfect balance.

-H
 
thanks for all the info. i guess i just have to make the decision whether im going to spend 1000 on a new system or new buds. eventually have to get both. i think the buds may make a bigger difference at this point. these dont sound very good on their own plugging straight to the axe. i just hope the better buds will make a big enough difference for the 1000 dollar price tag. there really isnt a way to give them a test run. hopefully its not very disappointing after spending the dough.
 
Anthony,
Your live wires should sound good. They're not cheapo earpieces.
Have you tried listening to known music with your earbuds and been happy with the sound? Did you plug them in to your computer and listen to some high quality audio that you're familiar with and been satisfied with what you're hearing?
Here is something you can do to further isolate the issue:
1. Listen to known music with your buds, not listen to the same music going through your in-ear system. What's the difference?
I suspect that your PSM200 is the cause of your issues more than the earbuds. Or possibly your earbuds are faulty.
You don't need to spend $1100 on buds to be happy. I don't believe that.
I have been auditioning various IEMs to check out quality of transmission and fidelity of signal and the biggest, BY FAR, differences, came from the FM reception.
Mono sucks - for sure.
Poor signal reception sucks - for sure
Companding circuits in some systems sucks.
Properly setting the limiters inside your system also make a HUGE difference. You may have the input too hot and the limiter licking in too early squashing your tone.
Based on the tests I have done so far, I recommend using a digital wireless unit. I am not sure what all is on the market at this point. I've tested the Lectrosonic Quadra and they sound stunning but cost more than the Axe FX II! So that's a bit out of most people's price range. The PSM 900 are "great" but I have reception issues which I must solve before I give them a real thumbs up.
But back to your question first: Check out the buds more thoroughly using known music. I don't think that's the issue. I think the problem is the PSM200.
Cheers and good luck.
Patrick
 
I don't have an Axe FX II yet, but I have an Ultra and my full band uses in-ears for practice. You'll never get the impact of having cabs in the room, but with a good stereo mix, you'll be able to hear everything clearly. Listen to some of your favorite songs through your unit so you know what to expect.

In-Ear monitors are really strange for awhile. For me, it sounds like a CD of myself playing, but in real time. There was this strange separation thing that was happening, but I got used to it. Stereo is an absolute must if you have 2 guitarists. I put myself in the right and the other guy in the left. Bass, drums, and vocals are straight up the middle. Obviously, EQ is important as well so everything has it's own location in the stack.
 
as far as isolation on stage with the in ears, i have never really had a problem with that. ive always felt comfortable.
it really seems like the in ears are lacking low end. the best way i can explain the sound is ( imagine you plug your guitar straight into a mixing board and used the channel trim/gain knob to add distortion to a guitar) sounds very thin. not a natural sounding distortion at all through the headphones. absolutely nothing like what i hear from my atomic when creating patches.
i know im never going to get the same feeling as if i had a 4x12 behind me but i thought it be possible to get close. i also find it a lot harder to hear any effects on have on a patch and my sustain is completely gone. this makes it very difficult to do solos. it sounds like the guitar is cutting out way too quick. or maybe its just getting lost in the in ear mix
the clean guitar sounds ok. a little fuller.

one thing i just noticed while using the ear buds with my ipod is that i seem to get a little more low end if i jam the molds as far into my ear canal as possible. its kind of hard to get them to stay like that though. especially if im singing and moving around.

as far as the shure psm 200 system, i notice that it has barely any headroom on it. i literally have to have the volume on the front of the unit at about 1 or else the system clips (red light) very easily. im not sure if the unit has auto built in compresson or not, but there arent any other internal adjustments on the unit. just the main input knob. the guitar does kind of have a clipping quality all the time through the buds.

i guess i could try a new unit first and see if it makes a different. at least that i can return if i dont like it.

EDIT: One other Thing i just noticed from the ear buds while listening to music on my ipod is that the low end changes dramatically just by me turning my head and moving my mouth. maybe these are not molded correctly for my ears. perhaps a silicone pair from sensaphonics may help to hold in some of the low end better. just a thought
 
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Several issues with what you are describing:
1. This is going to sound weird but it sounds like you're not sending the same thing to your FOH and your IEM?
2. If your buds don't stay put, they don't fit. The "custom fit" should be such that there is NO leakage of stage sound into your ears. If there is ANY leakage, you will not "feel isolated" because you hear ambient noise AND the bass level will be greatly diminished. The In Ear drivers rely very much on pushing sealed air (creating compression on the ear drum) to reproduce bass sounds. To illustrate this, you can put a regular pair of closed cans on your head and just lift them off ever so slightly from your ears and you'll feel the rapid loss of bass.
3. The input level of the IEM system seems too hot. You should lower the output level of whatever is sending signal to your PSM 200.

Do you have a regular paid of iPod buds? Plug them into the iPod and listen and then compare your in ear buds again. Better or worse? If worse than a generic iPod buds, then this is definitely a bust.
P
 
thanks for the advice. i actually am running the same out put as FOH to the in ear system but it is going through my allen and heath mix wiz board. so the only way the signal would be different is if the mixing board preamp was affecting it. i made sure that the mixing board signal was not in the red so the signal was definitely not too hot going into or our of the board. but like i said before the shure IEM system has to have the level set extremely low to keep it from clipping. its low enough to the point where if it was any lower i would have to have the receiver pack maxed out and still wouldnt have enough overall volume i the heaphones.

im hoping a better system will have a little more headroom and will be easier to dial in

i did send my molds in the mail back to live wires. they think they are not fitting tight enough in my ears. they are going to reshape them and dip them in some stuff to make them fit nice and snug. hopefully this will make a noticeable difference.

Patzag said:
Several issues with what you are describing:
1. This is going to sound weird but it sounds like you're not sending the same thing to your FOH and your IEM?
2. If your buds don't stay put, they don't fit. The "custom fit" should be such that there is NO leakage of stage sound into your ears. If there is ANY leakage, you will not "feel isolated" because you hear ambient noise AND the bass level will be greatly diminished. The In Ear drivers rely very much on pushing sealed air (creating compression on the ear drum) to reproduce bass sounds. To illustrate this, you can put a regular pair of closed cans on your head and just lift them off ever so slightly from your ears and you'll feel the rapid loss of bass.
3. The input level of the IEM system seems too hot. You should lower the output level of whatever is sending signal to your PSM 200.

Do you have a regular paid of iPod buds? Plug them into the iPod and listen and then compare your in ear buds again. Better or worse? If worse than a generic iPod buds, then this is definitely a bust.
P
Click to expand...
 
I've been running iem's with my band Bad Habit since I joined the group about 6 months ago. I've ran my gear line direct for years and always used JbL monitors in stereo for a complete mix (vocals,instruments, etc.). The sound was really great and had a nice ambience. I have to say after trying multiple iem setups, eqs, etc. , I think IEMs suck for guitar. Vocals, effects, bass, keys and CLEAN guitar are fine, however, distorted guitars just sound cheesy. You can EQ the hell out of it and make it acceptable, but it just doesn't have the natural sound that I get even running thru monitors. The distortions always sound artificial thru close up monitoring. In my case, the drummer played so damned loud that regular monitors were just drowned out because of the ridiculous stage volume. We now have another drummer that plays at a reasonable volume and I'm starting to wean the band off of the Iems. Obviously, this is just my opinion, but I have been playing out for 35 years and have always experimented with getting a finished mix on stage. My last band ran everything direct including electronic drums so we had no problem getting a killer sound thru the monitors.
There are a couple different earbuds that work more like a speaker and they do a better job on guitar, but they sound much more muddy on vocals and keys so at best it is a trade off.
What I do now when I have to use the IEMs is put a separate eq on the guitar feed to the IEMs. One other thing, stereo is a huge aid in distinguishing instruments, especially when there is more than one guitarist. Take it for what it's worth
 
thanks everyone.
i think for now im going to get a new stereo system and try out my remolded earpieces. should be a good improvement. eventually ill go for some high end ear buds
 
Hey Anthony, I do audio for a living and would second the opinion of those that state that the livewires are fine. They are a good monitor and on par with what Shure
offers at twice the price. I have heard some say that they prefer double driver models for electric guitarists and triple drivers for vocalists, but i cannot attest to that since
i run dual driver Westone UM2's (no molds) and have been pleased with them and have never used triples. Having your molds correct and seating well in your ears is key for keeping low end response, if you
are having issues with gaps around the molds when opening your mouth, then it sounds like you are on the right track getting them refit. I would also agree that running a mono mix for IEM's never sounds good. If
there is any way to get stereo in your ears you will be much happier as panning different instruments right and left is so crucial in being able to hear yourself at a reasonable volume. If the 200's are having a problem with
seeing the output of your mixer as too hot, try something like this Pro Co Sound MAX10 In-Line Pad MAX10 B&H Photo Video
to "step down" the signal and then run your input gain at a more reasonable level. If you are engaging a limiter in the psm200, then it will sound very lame, this might
be a step to do while waiting to move to another system. Also, the mention earlier of companding is a real consideration as it really affects audio quality on lower end wireless systems. Soon digital systems will
be the norm for ears and this will go away, but until that time we all have to live with it.
 
Hello Boleary,
are you on TGP? i think ive talked with you before
thanks for the advice. I think i may try a pad on the unit but i feel a stereo unit is the way to go.
 
Anthony,

I posted this in a few other IEM threads, but I will post it again here. please take a close look at the AKG IVM4 system. I've been using IEMs for almost a decade and I was amazed at the difference. As previously mentioned, a good seal and quality earbuds are important, but the system feeding those earbuds is critical. As I mentioned in previous threads, if you plug a $1000 set of earbuds into an AM radio, it STILL sounds like an AM radio! Also, when you go for new molds, make sure they have you open your mouth as if you were singing, so the new buds won't fall out when you actually do start singing. YMMV

Steph
 
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I use the Shure PSM200 too, with Westone UM3X (3-way) headphones and custom made molds. I take two monitors send, to have a stereo image.
I have used other headphones in the past, not totally happy, but with the Westones I really enjoy it now. Expensive but VERY worth it.

The problem with the PSM200 is that it accepts Mic-level signals, so if you want to feed it with line level (monitor desk sends) you really have to lower the input and/or telling the mixing guy to send very little signal. That way you shouldn't get distortion, actually you can check that with the input LEDs.
I opened the unit to see if it has a jumper to set line-level or mic-level signal, but there's nothing there. A design fault, IMO.
 
right now im debating on either getting the sennheiser ew300 or the akg ivm4
anyone have any recommendations or opinions on the differences between these two units?
 
I would make sure your ears are flat response. I just had this problem, I have a set of alien ears fr triples and thought if the triples sound this good the quads must be incredilbe! that did not happen, the quads are not flat response. More expensive and more drivers does not always mean better. Lucky for me Alien ears has a great policy and I should be receiving a new set of flat response iem soon. and alien ears are way less money than most customs. Be sure to get Flat response!
 
I used to use a mono PSM200 system with Alien Ears triple driver custom IEMs and experienced the exact same problem. We too were using an Allen Heath Mix wizard and my mix was coming from one of the aux sends. We all converted to the Aviom system and now I plug my IEMs directly into the Aviom and the difference in stereo is amazing. Custom IEMs and the Aviom were the single best gear purchase I've ever made - right up there with the Axe-FX.
 
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