Tremelo Beat Sync Issues

ralphonz

ralphonz

Inspired
Can someone explain to me how to get the tremolo in sync if I'm playing to a metronome (no DAW).

I'm using a square wave tremolo for a really choppy synth effect but it doesn't sound right if the square wave isn't on the beat exactly. The waveform alignment doesn't seem to have anything to do wth my playing and seems to just be running on its own "clock" as it were, making it impossible to get precision results.

The closest the manual comes to explaining how the tremolo syncs is:

"START PHASE – In tremolo mode, determines where the LFO will start at the moment the block is engaged."

I cannot engage/disengage the block as I am switching to the preset that uses the tremolo with the block already engaged. There isn't time to do a little tap dance with footswiches. That said, does this mean that if I engage the tremolo block exactly on the 1st beat then it'll be in sync with the click? It is possible for me to send a MIDI clock to the axe but this doesn't seem to help (although one would expect the whole unit to sync to the downbeat).

Essentially I want the start point of the tremolo waveform (set by start phase) to sync with the metronome downbeat (or drummers first beat, he's playing to a click) so that the trem pulse is perfectly in-time with everything else. How is this accomplished on the axe?
 
Set the tempo parameter in the temp/pan block to whichever subdivision you want and set the tempo to use parameter to preset if you want that preset to always use the same preset tempo. Tap in the tempo you want and save the preset.
 
thanks for taking the time to respond. Yes I've already set the tempo and beat division in the tremolo block, I'd have thought that was apparent in the question sorry!

But say I want a 1/16 square wave to line up exactly with the 1/16's of the beat I'm playing to how do I do that? Currently, even though the start phase may be set to 0 the square wave doesn't necessarily line up with the beat unless the block is engaged on the downbeat (in other words 0 is not on the downbeat unless by chance), but as i mentioned i want the tremolo on (and synced) as soon as the preset is switched to. Doest this make sense or should i make a diagram?
 
yes, the problem is even though the trem will be in tempo,, midi clock doesn't have any information about where the "1" is.

as a workaround, try this..

replace the trem block with a volume block and attach the volume parameter to lfo 1
then set lfo 1 to square
set tempo to 1/16, or whichever subdivision you like
then attach the "run" parameter to envelope.

envelope will trigger run when it crosses 64 (the middle of it's possible travel), so adjust the curve so that start is just under 64 and the rest of the curve is above it

now when you hit a chord, the lfo will run and start the tremolo effect

if you find that the phase is out (some people like the max volume to be on the 1, while others like the min volume to be on the 1), then attach lfo 1 B to the volume block instead of lfo 1 A and use the lfo 1 phase parameter to adjust the square wave start point. set it to 180.
 
Ha! You don't even need to use a volume block, you can just use the mixer level control of any block and save yourself some CPU (setting maximum to 0dB) :)
 
simeon said:
yes, the problem is even though the trem will be in tempo,, midi clock doesn't have any information about where the "1" is.

as a workaround, try this..

replace the trem block with a volume block and attach the volume parameter to lfo 1
then set lfo 1 to square
set tempo to 1/16, or whichever subdivision you like
then attach the "run" parameter to envelope.

envelope will trigger run when it crosses 64 (the middle of it's possible travel), so adjust the curve so that start is just under 64 and the rest of the curve is above it

now when you hit a chord, the lfo will run and start the tremolo effect

if you find that the phase is out (some people like the max volume to be on the 1, while others like the min volume to be on the 1), then attach lfo 1 B to the volume block instead of lfo 1 A and use the lfo 1 phase parameter to adjust the square wave start point. set it to 180.
Click to expand...

Simeon, I'm having the same issue as Ralphonz had, but I don't seem to be able to make it work... I've tried everything but nothing. The wave is always off sync with the beat when I hit a chord. What do you mean with 64? Could you post a pic of how the curve of the lfo should be? Any help would be much appreciated...
 
just put the start value at about 48. 50 is the mid point. the lfo will run when the little ball crosses the midpoint. if the lfo is still out of phase, then attach lfo1b to the volume block instead of lfo1a and adjust the phase.
 
simeon said:
just put the start value at about 48. 50 is the mid point. the lfo will run when the little ball crosses the midpoint. if the lfo is still out of phase, then attach lfo1b to the volume block instead of lfo1a and adjust the phase.
Click to expand...

Putting start at 48% has done the trick, thank you Simeon!!
 
simeon said:
yes, the problem is even though the trem will be in tempo,, midi clock doesn't have any information about where the "1" is.

as a workaround, try this..

replace the trem block with a volume block and attach the volume parameter to lfo 1
then set lfo 1 to square
set tempo to 1/16, or whichever subdivision you like
then attach the "run" parameter to envelope.

envelope will trigger run when it crosses 64 (the middle of it's possible travel), so adjust the curve so that start is just under 64 and the rest of the curve is above it

now when you hit a chord, the lfo will run and start the tremolo effect

if you find that the phase is out (some people like the max volume to be on the 1, while others like the min volume to be on the 1), then attach lfo 1 B to the volume block instead of lfo 1 A and use the lfo 1 phase parameter to adjust the square wave start point. set it to 180.
Click to expand...
This is ingenious! Great suggestion. Tiny gears are turning in my head...
 
I'd still really prefer the Axe FX to sync to the 1 beat using MIDI for convenience :) I find the envelope a little annoying - getting the release time short enough to re-trigger but long enough not to go off all the time is a pain.
 
Wouldn't it be easier to just update the tap tempo every few measures to keep things in sync. Unless your drummer is playing to a click track, the song tempo is mostly likely drifting and causing the effects to get out of sync.
 
ralphonz said:
I find the envelope a little annoying - getting the release time short enough to re-trigger but long enough not to go off all the time is a pain.
Click to expand...

You may want to try an ADSR instead of envelope for this. Make a "once" type ADSR (sustain off) that jumps to 100% for 10-15 ms. Too short of a duration won't always work, so try slightly above 15 ms if results seem inconsistent.

Assign ADSR to LFO run: start/mid/end 100/50/0, damping 0 ms. Now the ADSR will quickly stop & restart the LFO when triggered. The LFO won't stop at low volumes and you don't need to mute strings to restart it. Adjust ADSR threshold to where you can trigger it intentionally with enough of an accent, but not so low that normal/softer playing is constantly triggering.
 
mr_fender said:
Wouldn't it be easier to just update the tap tempo every few measures to keep things in sync. Unless your drummer is playing to a click track, the song tempo is mostly likely drifting and causing the effects to get out of sync.
Click to expand...
Yeah, generally I'd be using this sort of thing with a drummer playing to a click. Sometimes it needs to be absolutely locked in to sound "right", especially when I'm playing electronic sort of stuff.

@Bakerman, thanks for the tips. I'll have to give the ADSR another go.
 
if you have the trem or an lfo rate set to a tempo subdivision, then it will sync to incoming midi clock. use envelope or an adsr to trigger run and then it should stay in sync
 
Simeon,

I'm not sure I will ever use this. But I may try just because I think it sounds cool. Mostly, I just wanted to express my appreciation for how ingenious you are. This is brilliant.
 
Maybe I just need to work on my timing but if you fluff the first note even a little its really hard to get back on track.

I still think it would be easier if the axe could just sync to the MIDI clock downbeat (i.e. beat 1) - unless the Env/ADSR trigger is perfectly in time one first hit the effect is not in perfectly in sync, even when sending MIDI clock. It will be out the same amount as the initial trigger was on each beat unless you trigger it again. In that case it doesn't matter weather you send MIDI clock or not since the start point of the modulation wave (say 0 degrees) will not be bang on the first beat. The only way I've found to do it is to program the run parameter to be triggered from a DAW but I don't necessarily want to use a DAW live.

Waveform start positions (such as the LFO, flanger phaser tremolo) on the Axe seem to ignore the MIDI clock position altogether. The MIDI clock only sets the preset tempo (and therefore the beat division length) but the modulation waveform phase is not aligned to the MIDI clock which is really annoying. In other cases you don't know where your phaser or flanger start point is going to be when you switch to a preset... Even forgetting the MIDI clock, when a preset is switched to surely things should just start at 0 degrees right away (or start at the position you have set) but this is not the case until you engage the block within the preset, or if you can use an LFO, trigger the run parameter as discussed.
 
unfortunately, as i said before midi clock contains no information about beats or bars...it's just a running clock. maybe MTC might be a better option, although i don't even know if people still use it...
 
simeon said:
unfortunately, as i said before midi clock contains no information about beats or bars...it's just a running clock. maybe MTC might be a better option, although i don't even know if people still use it...
Click to expand...

That is true but synths, drum machines and many other effects units all successfully use MIDI clock to synchronise waveforms, arpeggiators and sequencers. I'm not 100% sure but i believe this is done using the start/stop messages - when you "play" the midi clock everything starts from the beginning, when you stop the midi clock it stops - simple. The axe doesn't use MIDI start/stop in any capacity other than to set the preset/global tempo as far as I can tell.
 
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