Throw a newbie a line

[strumbringer]

A couple more suggestions:

- Make sure you start without reverb. For high gain sounds, the default reverb settings are too high and can make everything blend together and sound muddy. Start without reverb altogether, and add it later if you want it.
- For the sound you're looking for, you may want to try the Energyball sim and recto cabs if you haven't already.
- If it sounds too muddy or boomy, remove some lows before the amp and add back after (i.e. PEQ before amp and after amp/cab).
- If you're using 7.18 Firmware, make sure amp depth is turned way down to start with. Add it back in to taste.
- Fine tune with EQ at the end of the signal chain.
- This is probably an obvious one: if you have hot pickups, you may want to turn down the volume a little bit on the guitar itself so that you get a more pure tone on the input of the Axe. You can compensate by tweaking the input volume knob or adding a null filter with a level bost at the beginning of the signal chain.

Good luck!
- S

 

[Chris Hurley]

Thanks for more good stuff...

- Make sure you start without reverb. For high gain sounds, the default reverb settings are too high and can make everything blend together and sound muddy. Start without reverb altogether, and add it later if you want it.

This is really a big one- fortunately, I learned this from back in the GSP-21 Legend days. Reverb, delay, chorus and other goodies do a great job of masking the tone underneath.

When I started building amps, I was sort of at a loss because I basically couldn't play without a bunch of reverb, delay, and gain. My whole playing style changed as a result. The only time I really use reverb now is under headphones when I just want some hint of a room sound to help desterilize the environment a bit.

Going through the presets reminds me that some of those things are pretty cool when used judiciously.

- For the sound you're looking for, you may want to try the Energyball sim and recto cabs if you haven't already.
- If it sounds too muddy or boomy, remove some lows before the amp and add back after (i.e. PEQ before amp and after amp/cab).
- If you're using 7.18 Firmware, make sure amp depth is turned way down to start with. Add it back in to taste.

I think one thing that I've discovered is that there is so much low end on tap here that it is throwing me. On amps that I've built, I've always had a problem with getting enough low end for an amp to sound big but not too much so that it gets muddy. I usually end up on the side of not enough low end, and that might make the amp sound a hair more open than would otherwise be the case. 7.18 seems, by some accounts, to have plenty of low end on top of that.

- This is probably an obvious one: if you have hot pickups, you may want to turn down the volume a little bit on the guitar itself so that you get a more pure tone on the input of the Axe. You can compensate by tweaking the input volume knob or adding a null filter with a level bost at the beginning of the signal chain.

I don't think I have overly hot pickups, and they aren't active, but I'm curious about this comment.

I saw some comments in another thread where it was suggested to make sure that you had plenty of input level- tickle the reds, basically. Could you elaborate a bit on your point here?

The axe-fx is slowly bending to my will. Today's efforts with the poweramp and guitar cab sounded good, and tonights efforts under the headphones with the cab sim that I posted earlier today were also satisfying. I'm going to have to give it a try through some regular cabinets soon too...

Thanks again to everyone who gave suggestions about how to get rolling. It seems that the biggest trick of all is "don't panic- spend plenty of time with it"

 

[mik]

It is also worth mentioning that the environment that you are playing it in is pretty important .. I have set up 2 patches with 7.18 before the practice Energyball one and Diezel one .. I just loved how diezel one sounded at home .. punchy, nice mids and great on its own .. Energyball one was pretty cool but less appealing at that moment ... seemed to be a bit harsh .. Guess what - I get to the practice - and the diezel patch just magically disappears in the band's mix .. The Energyball one - sounds like a legend ...

Mik.

 

[strumbringer]

I don't think I have overly hot pickups, and they aren't active, but I'm curious about this comment.
I saw some comments in another thread where it was suggested to make sure that you had plenty of input level- tickle the reds, basically. Could you elaborate a bit on your point here?

Some hot pickups compress the signal and "mix it all together" at high output (I don't know the reason for this, but it's just something I've noticed). I think it may have to do with how they interact with the rest of the electronics. (I don't know if it's related or not, but I find I like pickups with good string articulation, e.g. SD Alnico 2 Pros or PRS 5708s because that gives you the most to work with - turns out those tend to be medium output pickups. I'm talking passives only; I have no experience playing actives so can't comment on how those behave - the batteries always turned me off :lol: ).

Re. tickling the reds, I think there are three reasons, somewhat unrelated. The first is that you want to make sure you're giving the Axe-FX enough input signal. I think as long as you tickle the yellows, you should be good on that front. The second is that the stronger the input signal, the less gain you need on a pedal/amp to induce breakup. I think that louder signals also tend to get processed differently (soft clipping algorithm on the front input), so that adds to the tone - I think it functions a bit like a multiband compressor on the input. IMO, the first reason is important, the second and third ... meh, I prefer an input signal that I shape myself, but to each his or her own .

 

[javajunkie]

I don't think I have overly hot pickups, and they aren't active, but I'm curious about this comment.
I saw some comments in another thread where it was suggested to make sure that you had plenty of input level- tickle the reds, basically. Could you elaborate a bit on your point here?

Some hot pickups compress the signal and "mix it all together" at high output (I don't know the reason for this, but it's just something I've noticed). I think it may have to do with how they interact with the rest of the electronics. (I don't know if it's related or not, but I find I like pickups with good string articulation, e.g. SD Alnico 2 Pros or PRS 5708s because that gives you the most to work with - turns out those tend to be medium output pickups. I'm talking passives only; I have no experience playing actives so can't comment on how those behave - the batteries always turned me off :lol: ).

Re. tickling the reds, I think there are three reasons, somewhat unrelated. The first is that you want to make sure you're giving the Axe-FX enough input signal. I think as long as you tickle the yellows, you should be good on that front. The second is that the stronger the input signal, the less gain you need on a pedal/amp to induce breakup. I think that louder signals also tend to get processed differently (soft clipping algorithm on the front input), so that adds to the tone - I think it functions a bit like a multiband compressor on the input. IMO, the first reason is important, the second and third ... meh, I prefer an input signal that I shape myself, but to each his or her own .

To elaborate:

The soft clipping should not occur until it get well into the red. It only has soft clipping on the front. The soft clipping is not meant in any way, shape, or form to add to the tone (all though, whatever works...). Its purpose is to keep the Axe-fx from going into digital clipping which sounds really bad. Because of the soft clipping, you don't need to worry much about adding a distortion pedal to the front and it causing digital clipping.


The main reason for tickling the reds with the input is so you get an optimal signal into the analog to digital converters. An optimal signal should give you the highest signal to noise ratio. However, the axe-fx is quite tolerant of lower signal levels and work fine even with low signals.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

To elaborate even further: in order to make maximum use of the available dynamic range in any amplification system - tube amp as well as Axe-Fx - you need to optimize the gain structure of that system. Practically speaking, this means to move as much of the gain as possible to the input stage of the system. This is simply not possible with a physical amp, because the voltage gain of the first stage is fixed, and because the distribution of voltage gain is intimately connected with the character of the distortion produced by the amp. The input level control on the front panel of the Axe-Fx enables you to "center" the signal level of your guitar in the available (and quite large) dynamic range of the Axe-Fx.

Used as instructed, the input stage of the Axe-Fx will not compress or otherwise color the signal from your guitar. It will make available a strong, clean signal with the highest possible signal/noise ratio to the internal processing blocks. If you want compression, you'll need to perform that operation with one of these blocks.

 

[Chris Hurley]

I've been using the poweramp on my regular gigging amp (a homebrew I built as a couple years ago- basically 4 cascaded gain stages, an anode-follower tone stack, a recovery stage, LTPI, 2xEL34 output). Its been sounding better and better, and having loaded my favorite impulse, the headphone stuff is getting better too.

Fortunately, patches that are working in headphones with cabinet simulation are working OK through my homebrew poweramp, cabinet without cab simulation.

I decided to give the old ADA Microfet 100 a try this morning and it is a very different sound. Its very forward sounding without a lot of crispness or low end through the same cabinet. Perhaps ADA intended for it to help reduce the fizzies from the MP-1, but I don't think its going to work for this purpose.

I've got a yorkville AP800, but that's probably not a very good fit either (and it weighs a ton). I might use it to try out the axe-fx with some floor monitors that I own. Not expecting too much there.

Lots of people seem to like the SLA-2, but the budget is tapped for now.

 

[Stratman68]

Bull crappy! Give me a $200 guitar and I'll make it sound decent! Give me a $3000 guitar and I can make it sound horrible! Although better gear is more prone to sounding "good" , a cheap guitar in the right hands can sound great too.

Well, good for you! I know which one i'd rather play though.....

Regardless, the OP stated he was getting a fine a sound w/ his guitar and amp. The Axe-fx should be no different.

Firstly- (Yugo's may be fine,. just an ex If you drive a hugo for 10 years, you can only compare another driving experience to your yugo. The OP says his setup sounds good-fine-great. Compared to what?
2 days and he is making judegements. Please!
|IMHO-anyone who"builds tube amps" should certainly be able to get a good sound out of the best Guitar Preamp/amp in history Also, I know I could get an OK sound out of a sears guitar if I had to, but I sure would have to modify it. but I also have been playing for 35 years. Duncan design pups? Spare me, that's a sales pitch, . Everything is relevant- But in the end-No matter what your equipment-Your guitar and amp knowledge is critical as are your ears. It amazes me that some newbie posts that ask for help get demonized with the "search engine is your friend" stuff. Some get this long lengthy thread of help? Who decides?
Plenty of help has been given-It's time to "put in your own time" If you want it to work it will, it's there in the Axe. No, the axe is not for everyone-just for most!

 

[Jay Mitchell]

2 days and he is making judegements. Please!

How can you possibly arrive at that conclusion from this: "I'm on day 2 with my Ultra and I'm really struggling with getting convincing amp sounds out of it- either direct or into a power amp and cabinet (tube or solid state, with the cabs in axe-fx disabled). I've heard clips here that I thought sounded great, so I believe that the Axe-FX has the capability, I'm just not having much luck turning that into reality for me."

That is his statement in the OP. He is not "making judgments," he is asking for help. Do you have any to offer him?

It amazes me that some newbie posts that ask for help get demonized with the "search engine is your friend" stuff. Some get this long lengthy thread of help? Who decides?

Here's my theory: there are lots of ignorant, lazy whines like "I just got my Axe-Fx, and it sucks. What am I doing wrong?" These typically get the stock answers (e.g., "RTFM" or "Do a search"), and relatively few of those. This is because it is apparent that the individual has made little or no effort to help himself, and he has not offered enough information for anyone else to be able to help him.

In light of the above, perhaps you should reread the OP in this topic. He gives lots of specifics and even posts links to sounds he would like to produce with his Axe-Fx. He has obviously made intelligent effort towards getting what he wants, he is not passing judgement about the Axe-Fx, and he has clearly tried the legitimate suggestions that have been offered since he composed the OP.

Is it your position that we should not be trying to help a motivated user such as this? If so, why?

 

[javajunkie]

Regardless, the OP stated he was getting a fine a sound w/ his guitar and amp. The Axe-fx should be no different.

Firstly- (Yugo's may be fine,. just an ex If you drive a hugo for 10 years, you can only compare another driving experience to your yugo. The OP says his setup sounds good-fine-great. Compared to what?
2 days and he is making judegements. Please!
|IMHO-anyone who"builds tube amps" should certainly be able to get a good sound out of the best Guitar Preamp/amp in history Also, I know I could get an OK sound out of a sears guitar if I had to, but I sure would have to modify it. but I also have been playing for 35 years. Duncan design pups? Spare me, that's a sales pitch, . Everything is relevant- But in the end-No matter what your equipment-Your guitar and amp knowledge is critical as are your ears. It amazes me that some newbie posts that ask for help get demonized with the "search engine is your friend" stuff. Some get this long lengthy thread of help? Who decides?
Plenty of help has been given-It's time to "put in your own time" If you want it to work it will, it's there in the Axe. No, the axe is not for everyone-just for most!

It doesn't need to be compared to anything? He was just asking on some tweaking advice and on how to get there. If his guitar/amp combination sounded good (to him), he should be able to get there with the axe-fx.

He probably got a longer, more detail answer because he was fairly descriptive on his issue and the answer was not a canned one.

Who decides? No one. You are just as free to tell him to do search as someone else is to give a detailed answer.

 

[Chris Hurley]

2 days and he is making judegements. Please!
[...]
|IMHO-anyone who"builds tube amps" should certainly be able to get a good sound out of the best Guitar Preamp/amp in history

Everyone loves a "good" generalization.

In the population of people who "build tube amps", there is a pretty diverse range of capabilities. I am not a master builder and never claimed to be- I know enough to satisfy my personal amp needs of the last ten years, but with two jobs, two bands, and a family, I don't have a lot of time to build amps and even less time to play them loud.

The axe-fx represents an opportunity to play through an approximation of an amp that I don't have time to build, or in situations where playing a real amp isn't an option.

 

[axepilot]

I'm on day 2 with my Ultra and I'm really struggling with getting convincing amp sounds out of it- either direct or into a power amp and cabinet (tube or solid state, with the cabs in axe-fx disabled). I've heard clips here that I thought sounded great, so I believe that the Axe-FX has the capability, I'm just not having much luck turning that into reality for me.

Its hard to say what is really wrong with the sounds I'm getting- compared to my regular gigging amp at similar volumes through the same cabinet and even through the gigging amps poweramp, my axe-fx sounds have been dull, dark, flat and the distortion seems sort of garbled. When I switch back to my regular amp and preamp, the sound just seems to be more open and lively. Its sort of weasly to say that it sounds more three-dimensional in the room, but that's what I'm experiencing. Disabling the power amp simulation seems to relieve that garble, but I've yet to nail down which parameters in that section are involved in this issue.

For you folks who use your axe-fx for similar duty and love it, I'd appreciate any advice that you care to share. I've read most of the wiki and manual at least twice, and have read a lot of threads here, at other forums, and on the old forum before I bought the Ultra. I build tube amps in meat-space, but reconciling that experience with the virtual world has been a challenge.

Chris,

You're only two days into it and declaring foul?

I'm only five months into my Standard and I'm just now getting really comfortable with the editing and the page navigation - essential Axe FX skills.

In just two days, I'll assume all you did was cruise the factory presets. If so, you are truly missing the essential point and mission of the Axe FX. The Axe FX is not "plug and play". You need to dig into it and tweak the sounds you like.

It never happens is just two days.

 

[Stratman68]

[quote="Jay Mitchell

Is it your position that we should not be trying to help a motivated user such as this? If so, why?[/quote]

No Jay-That is not my position-And I think equipment is relevant to OP post-I stand by my post-But I will leave the thread because I do not have anything to offer this OP and I don't want to upset those in power here.
Edited:Not important info
Mind Boggling!

 

[Chris Hurley]

You're only two days into it and declaring foul?

I was two days in and asking for some guidance since I wasn't making much progress. No foul declared anywhere.

I've had some progress since the original posting, despite having only cheap (~$700) crap asian guitars to work with.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Moderator's note: this topic has been split. The previously off-topic posts have been moved to a new topic - "Guitar Quality" - in the Lounge. Those wishing to continue the debate about Samick/Asian/non-American guitar quality should post in the new topic.

 

[joegold]

Chris

You said you were trying to work as close to a clean amp plus pedals paradigm as possible.
You said you were running the Axe into a guitar cabinet through an ADA ss power amp. That's not the best choice of a power amp, but it will do, especially if you've used it satisfactorily with other preamps and the same cab before.
So forget all these little side trips into FRFR and headphones and cab sims and whatever other diversions you find yourself getting sucked into, for now.

Try this:

Start with the USA Clean amp type.
Start with all the knobs on the 1st page of parameters at 12:00 (Drive, Bass, Middle, Treble) and engage the bright switch.
On the next page of parameters leave everything alone except for the Master (put it at 12:00) and Level (adjust so the preset is as loud as possible without clipping the Out 1 led when you strum your guitar on the bridge pickup as hard as you can with the guitar's vol and tone controls on max).
Leave all the advanced parameters on the next page alone.

Through a decent power amp and a decent guitar cab, with no cab sim in the Axe, that should sound like a really good clean tone from a really good tube amp.
Adjust the Bass, and Treble controls to taste. I'd leave the Mid control alone myself, but feel free to go a little bit either way, but not much.
If that doesn't sound good then there is something wrong with your monitoring system, or with the the way you're using the Axe, or with the Axe unit itself.
Once you have your clean sound, try adding more pedal-type effects blocks in front of it.
If you want reverb, echo or chorus I'd put those blocks after the amp block.
If you'd rather get hi-gain-ish sounds from a tube amp sim rather than from an overdrive pedal sim then do the above again but use the USA Lead 1 amp type.

Again, if that does not sound as good as any real clean amp or hi-gain amp you've ever played thru in the real world then something is wrong.