Throw a newbie a line

Chris Hurley

Power User
I bought an ultra hoping to eventually use it at shows instead of a guitar amp, preferably direct to board, but possibly augmented with something else onstage. I normally use a single channel amp with a few pedals and thats what I'm trying to replace for now. At home I'm wanting to do some rehearsing with headphones when the kids are asleep. I've used the computer and plugins for this duty before, and have had a fair bit of luck using the preamp from my homebrew amp into impulses on the computer, but I'm hoping to consolidate down to the axe-fx and a minimal headphone amp rig.

I'm on day 2 with my Ultra and I'm really struggling with getting convincing amp sounds out of it- either direct or into a power amp and cabinet (tube or solid state, with the cabs in axe-fx disabled). I've heard clips here that I thought sounded great, so I believe that the Axe-FX has the capability, I'm just not having much luck turning that into reality for me.

Its hard to say what is really wrong with the sounds I'm getting- compared to my regular gigging amp at similar volumes through the same cabinet and even through the gigging amps poweramp, my axe-fx sounds have been dull, dark, flat and the distortion seems sort of garbled. When I switch back to my regular amp and preamp, the sound just seems to be more open and lively. Its sort of weasly to say that it sounds more three-dimensional in the room, but that's what I'm experiencing. Disabling the power amp simulation seems to relieve that garble, but I've yet to nail down which parameters in that section are involved in this issue.

For you folks who use your axe-fx for similar duty and love it, I'd appreciate any advice that you care to share. I've read most of the wiki and manual at least twice, and have read a lot of threads here, at other forums, and on the old forum before I bought the Ultra. I build tube amps in meat-space, but reconciling that experience with the virtual world has been a challenge.

To give an example of the sort of sounds that I might gravitate towards, the Voodoo Amps MP-1 clips get in the ballpark:

http://www.voodooamps.com/sounds/ADAMultiClip1.mp3
http://www.voodooamps.com/sounds/ADAMulti-Clip.mp3


I thank you in advance for any suggestions, and I hope to be turning the corner soon with this unit.
 
i feel your pain chris..i have had my standard for a couple months now,and get a very good clean,and lead tone. but i cant seem to get a good thick rock power chord going without sounding brittle,muddy or garbled as you said...or it sounds good one day and take it to practice to find myself turning knobs again cause it dont sound right..im catching hell from bands mates now. :evil: ...i have started with a blank patch and added nothing but a amp block and a dab of delay thats as close to having a sound i like..much of anything else for distorted power chords sounds like a wash.... thats with the axe and ss power amp.
it would be nice to hear more cabs with a mic instead of direct..
 
First off, make sure the cabinet simulation is bypassed as well, on any patch you're trying out into a guitar cabinet. That's essential. A cabinet sim into a real cabinet sounds muddy and terrible.

Try starting out with a blank patch, just do an amp block into your power amp and cabinet, and explore the different types of amps. Play with the conventional amp controls first ... drive, bass, mids, treble, master, level, presence.

Have you tried using the factory presets into a pair of headphones? Lots of examples in there.

Turning off the cabinet simulations in the presets (which they ALL have, if I'm not mistaken) should get you some variation into your own power amp and cabinet.

It's all in there ... it depends a lot, however, on what you are running it into.
 
I agree, also as a relative newbie, I have messed around with all sorts of settings for a few weeks to get a good sound from overdriven / distorted patches FRFR. No luck though, I just can't get the realistic sounds others rave about. The clean sounds are nice, although they do lack a bit of punch.
Its a different story through my Power amp & cab though. Everything is freaking awesome that way. With the cab sims off (of course) but the Power amp sims left on.
 
can you name the model numbers of the gear you're plugging the axe into? i run direct and it sounds great every time. what are you using exactly?
 
chrisallen8888 said:
can you name the model numbers of the gear you're plugging the axe into? i run direct and it sounds great every time. what are you using exactly?


I am an Axe-Noob as well. I have only plugged into the AFX 4 times now. I can already hear the amazing potential of the tones that I will eventually achieve, but I have come to one definitive conclusion that has changed the way I look at the Axe-Fx.

EVERYTHING changes the tonal characteristics of the sound you get from this unit. I have owned modellers and multi's from Boss, Line 6, Vox, Digitech, etc... and they all sound similar from guitar to guitar, pickup to pickup, rig to rig. With the AFX, the pickup height alone can change the entire feel of a patch that you are playing through. To be honest, the first time I plugged my Les Paul into the AFX, I didn't like the sound, period. I actually lowered the pickups and adjusted them by ear. Just that change alone was enough to make me say, "holy shit..." I needed a lower input from the pickups to get that volume knob adjustable breakup and picking dynamics that make crunch and rhythm tones sound so sweet.

I have no doubt that all of the sounds are in there, but the sounds also seem to depend greatly on the instruments that you are plugging into them or the way you are attacking or backing off on your playing that particular day.

Just my 2 cents, but what do I know, I'm brand new at this too! :D
 
It sounds like you need to drop in an EQ block after the amp. This really helps in tunning what your looking for weather it's a graphic or PEQ (EQ is your friend). Also tunning for FRFR will be way different than tunning for an amp and cab set up so you may want to keep that in mind when giging out FRFR or using head phones.

As mentioned befor strip everything off of a patch thats close to what you like and start with the basics, amp and cab block (for FRFR) establish you fundamental tone and go from there. Drop an EQ block ether graphic or PEQ and experiment further also try different cab RI's. For your amp and cab set up depending on what type of power amp your going to use SS or Tube you may want to play with the P.A. controll. An EQ block after the amp will aid in adding the high you say your sound is missing. The tone your hunting for is in their you just need to tune it in.
 
Thanks guys- I'm not a tube amp snob who is trying to say that the axe-fx can't possibly replace a tube amp. Even though I build tube amps, I'd be perfectly happy to stop that and use the Axe-fx because it would be a lot more convenient.

I appreciate the comments, and I'll try to address the suggestions and fill in more backstory-

I've turned off cabinet simulation with the global parameter when I'm connecting to a guitar cabinet. Obviously the cabinet simulation screws up the sound of a real amp cab just as it would with any amp simulation device that has a cabinet simulation.

I can appreciate that models will sound different when hooked to a guitar cabinet than through cabinet simulation and FRFR, but I'd expect them to still sound good just as a variety of real amps hooked to this cabinet sound fine.

One thing that might be at work- when I change amp models, the parameters all stay the same. I would expect there would be different settings pulling up as defaults in the models, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Perhaps this is all handled under the hood. I can reset the block and all the parameters seem to go to roughly 12'oclock. I wouldn't expect that would suit a rectifier model and a clean amp model equally, but I don't know whats under the hood. They may all be scaled so that this is fine.

As for what specific gear I'm using:

Guitar has been Samick Semi-Hollow (Royale 300?), as well as Samick solid body les-paul style.

My cabinet is a deep 1x12 that I built roughly to the same dimensions as the Avatar 1x12. The cabinet isn't a 4x12, but it sounds good with the variety of amps (commercial or homebrew) I've tried. While some will undoubtedly prefer other cabinets or speakers, this configuration has been great for small bar shows, rehearsals and home use. I own a 4x12, but I don't generally take it out due to size and weight, and I'm generally mic'd anyway.

The SS power amp that I tried is an ADA Microfet 100. I used to use this with rack preamps some years ago. I sold all the other rack gear, but kept the ADA for use in other situations. With my homebrew preamp driving the ADA, it sounds surprisingly good. Even the AMT-P1 5150-style distortion pedal into the ADA sounded pretty good, as does my old rackmount sansamp (not the PSA-1, the older one). I also tried the poweramp on my crate power block, with the axe-fx which was predictably awful. My amp's preamp seems to sound considerably better through the ADA than through the crackerjack crate, which is hardly a surprise.

When using headphones, I've tried two configurations: outputs of the axe-fx into my presonus firebox (making sure there is no clipping), and outputs into the aux-in of my pod xt. I detect no appreciable difference in either of these configurations. My regular amp's preamp run into the firebox and into a cabinet simulation (or into the Axe-fx cabinet simulation!) sounds great.

Headphones are consumer JVC's which aren't studio phones, but tend to be satisfying for tracking guitar. I haven't tried my Audio Technica "studio phones" in this application, but they have a tendency to be very bland sounding for guitar tracking.

I read about getting enough signal into the Axe-FX a few days ago, so I've got it set to hit the reds once in a while as recommended. I'm not getting any visible indication of clipping on the outputs.

Lets see what else... I've auditioned a great many of the factory presets. I spent more time with some than others since there are almost 400. When I heard something promising, I'd strip out the effects to try to hear the amp underneath. Are the presets representative of the tones that the device can do, or is it like all other devices where the presets aren't even close to what you can get out of the amp simulations?

The Axe-FX sounds massively better than my PODxt. The amp simulations are better than what I've heard from Amplitube/II and Guitar Rig 2/3, while in the same ballpark as Revalver II/III, though the Axe-FX is significantly less noisy and has vastly better effects sounds than RIII. Maybe I haven't prepared myself to make enough of a compromise for the convenience, but seeing all the people talking about selling their amps and doing head-to-head comparisons in a room with real amps seemed awfully promising. So far, my head-to-head comparisons against a real amp have been crushingly disappointing, but that's why I'm seeking advice.

I know that there is a learning curve and there is obviously a lot to tweak. I'd go through the archived axechange presets, but they were done for older firmware and after seeing all the comments about changes in 7.17 and 7.18, I doubt they'd sound as intended anyway...

If there aren't any other suggestions beyond "spend a few months tweaking it and you'll eventually get there", maybe someone will take a crack at copping the sound in those clips I posted.

I'm ready to believe... I want to love the axe-fx and there are some things that I really like about its design. So far, I've not had the success of others with the amp simulations.

Your help is appreciated, of course.
 
Chris Hurley said:
when I change amp models, the parameters all stay the same.
No, they don't. The parameters that a user would be able to adjust on a physical amp remain the same - "drive," tone controls, presence, and MV - but all the advanced parameters are reset to the defaults for that model when you select it.

I would expect there would be different settings pulling up as defaults in the models,
There are.

The SS power amp that I tried is an ADA Microfet 100.
That should be adequate for low to medium volume use.

Lets see what else... I've auditioned a great many of the factory presets.
Fuhgeddaboutit. Blank a preset and add an amp block and nothing else. Playing through your amp/cab setup, tweak to taste, beginning with the conventional controls, then going to the advanced parameters. As a builder of tube amps, you should be completely comfortable adjusting the Lo Cut (equivalent to the cathode resistor bypass cap in the first stage), Damp (negative feedback), Sag (B+ impedance), etc., etc. These parameters all have the same effect their equivalents have in physical amps.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
[quote="Chris Hurley":3e1gemu6]when I change amp models, the parameters all stay the same.
No, they don't. The parameters that a user would be able to adjust on a physical amp remain the same - "drive," tone controls, presence, and MV - but all the advanced parameters are reset to the defaults for that model whn you select it.
[/quote:3e1gemu6]

OK- well, strike that as a possible reason as to why I'm not getting great sounds out of it.


Fuhgeddaboutit. Blank a preset and add an amp block and nothing else.

I'm pretty frustrated with what is coming out of it compared to a real amp, but I'm not prepared to give up on it just yet. This is a long weekend for me, fortunately...
 
How to tweak for venue-supplied sound

rinse and repeat...

After another few hours on it, I'm making some progress on a medium/high gain sound. I'm still missing some chime, but I'm working on it.

I think at least some people use venue-supplied monitors and most everyone uses whatever FOH is provided. Any suggestions for tweaking sounds for use in those environments?
 
i typed this long thing below, but wanna say something before you read it:

i don't think the axefx is harder to use than a traditional amp setup. i don't think you have to slave for months trying to get a good sound, while a traditional amp is much faster. i think there are many things we take for granted and actually miss because we have no control over it using a traditional amp (FOH sound, being able to EQ your stage mix and FOH mix separately, etc.) the amount of options given with the axefx and the amount of control sometimes is daunting.... like a 32 channel mixer, people see that and go "woah so many knobs i'm overwhelmed" when they don't know that there are only 14 knobs that are repeated 32 times.... not 200+ knobs that are all unique. so you just may have to take a bit of time to figure out what is important to making tones before you concern yourself with all the controls and options that the axefx gives us. that said....

this is what i do:

first off... i don't use any presets. i think they are there to show you what is possible, but you have to EQ and setup for your particular rig. if you buy a mesa road king and a mesa 4x12 cab and then copy someone's amp settings, chances are you'll get a pretty close match. but because the axefx can go through many different output devices (speakers, amps, FRFR, etc) even with the same patch as me, yours will sound different through different output gear (of course not even mentioning guitar, playing style, etc)

as jay said, start with amp and cab. something you may be familiar with, get that going. get a "good sound." make sure you aren't clipping and not too soft as well. the utility button has a VU meter a few pages to the right. keep your output levels at about 75%, i'd say, but to taste. just make sure it's not too loud or too quiet.

make sure your Global Graphic EQs are flat (i'll say why later). get that good sound with one patch. this will be the basis for setting up your other patches!

one trick as mentioned before is to put a graphic EQ or PEQ block right after the amp. i tend to put mine after the cab. i'll see what the amp block hi,mid,low,etc settings do for me as well as the advanced parameters (low and high shelf do WONDERS for tone, especially for FRFR). i sometimes put the low shelf very high and the high shelf very low on distortion patches to squeeze the allowed frequency range so my tweeters in FRFR speakers don't go crazy, and the Subs on the FRFR FOH system don't go crazy either. then i can EQ the sound a little bit more, if i need to bring up the mids a bit, or if the bass is still crazy.

so you get this first patch sounding good. now the 2nd patch you make, say a distortion patch, you have to make that at the same "audible volume" as the first one... using the same process.

the whole goal of this is to have a consistent environment where you MAKE your patches. if all your patches sound good with one setup in one room, then you'll be ready to fight the challenges of plugging into foreign equipment in a new room etc.

i have about 8 patches i use regularly now, cleans, dirtys, leads, etc. they all sound good at home when i made the patches. i actually made them for "recording" purposes, meaning low volume, good sound and mix with a CD playing.

on each patch, i put a Graphic EQ in the last block on the layout grid. this is my "live EQ." i get to the gig, and my main mesa distortion rhythm patch has WAY too much highs at the volume i'm playing live, and the speakers they provide (mains and monitors). well, instead of altering the patch and losing my settings that sound good in the place where i made all the patches (remember they all sounded good there), i just alter this final GEQ, cut some highs and stuff to taste, and bam... sounds good live and i retain my recording settings too. i just turn on or off this single block depending on where i'm playing.

at first i did this with all my patches, and by now, i've got it sounding pretty good. so i have my live sound and my recorded sound and in either environment, they all sound good together.

now i go to another gig, and all my patches are really bassy because of the room and speakers used... well instead of adjusting each patch, now i use the Global button GEQ and tame it there.

basically if all my patches sound great and balanced in one room, then they should sound great in another after a bit of EQ is done. i've found this to work really well, and even without an extensive sound check (usually have 15 minutes to set up and then play!) i can do a bit of CHUG CHUG, WANK WANK with the guitar and know what EQ to cut on the global GEQ.

now some say "but you aren't getting the EXACT tone you got at home because you're just arbitrarily changing the EQ." that is true. but i really don't care too much about exact tone... it's more about how good it sounds as a whole and with the band in which i'm playing. it sounds good, great, phenomenal!

but that's kinda what you have to sacrifice if you're playing on different equipment at different places all the time... that is unless you always provide the sound system as a whole. you of course can sound more consistent for yourself if you bring your own output gear... i always bring an Eon 15 powered speaker with me and i know at least i'm going to feel good on stage because i've also built my live tones with that speaker at gig volume.

but it's still going to sound different through the FOH and monitors, so you have to be ready for that... that's why i like how there are 2 outputs (copy output 1 to output 2) and 2 Global Graphic EQs!!! it's the ultimate tone machine!

when i used to bring my mesa roadster and 2x12 cab, of course that would generally sound consistent, but i could never "turn off the speaker to listen to the mains only" because i had to have it on so the mic would pick it up. i always do this trick: do a sound check, then either kill your personal monitor speaker, or ask the sound guy to take you out of the monitor send for a bit. play, and hear the mains.... even from behind them while on the stage. it will give you a quick listen to what the audience is hearing (which i think ultimately is the most important). this may give you insight on what EQ to shift real quick on your globals eqs so it sounds good out there. then kick in your monitors and you're good to go.

sorry so long... i always type too much. good luck!
 
Chris Hurley said:
The SS power amp that I tried is an ADA Microfet 100.

You need a better power amp if you want to hear the way the Axe is capable of sounding.
See if you can rent an ART SLA1 or SLA2.
 
If you're finding the sounds a little too muddy or "homogenous", try backing off the Master in the 2nd page of the Amp block a bit. It's tempting to dial the Master to 10, knowing that many tube amps sound their best this way, but I find that often the amp sims sound more defined, more 3D, better string definition, etc. with the Master dialed back to taste.
 
Chris, that's a great suggestion.

Don't neglect to use the "Global amps" feature; dial in 10 of your favorite amp types -- Brownface, Plexi, Blackface, Wrecker, USA Lead 1, 800, 900 etc. etc. -- and save them as globals and then build off of those with cabs, effects, etc. This occurred to me last night as I was paging through the manual, I have ignored that feature so far.

I am also starting to save some presets that have nothing in them but one effect I like that I have dialed in ... Mesa scooped GEQ, Mutron III, Phase 100, Octave, etc. ... so I can call them in easier to new presets that I am going to build. Eventually, I will tailor the gain-dependent ones (envelope filter, overdrive) to a specific guitar so they don't have to be tweaked later ... Mutron III Strat, Mutron III PRS, and so forth. Then you can recall that one effect to whatever preset you are working on. This will work well if, say, you have an existing preset with two drives you like, but you want to bring drive 2 into the drive 1 slot of a new preset you are working on.

You don't necessarily have to reinvent the wheel for every single preset.
 
porieux said:
No not a special guitar, a good guitar. Trust me I've been playing 25 years, a fine instrument makes all the difference.
I'm honestly not trying to be rude in any way. Way too many people underestimate the importance of quality...

[...]
I agree and don't.
If you're a newbie to the guitar in general, you may not be able to appreciate the differences.
But the great thing for the Axe-Fx is that it will really *show you* the differences between guitars.

(If you aren't a newbie to the guitar in general, and simply prefer the Samick (I don't know anything about them), please ignore the rest of this post. :D )

My main guitar is a Variax (a guitar that models guitars...) and if you'd asked me a few years ago to describe the differences between each of the models, I'd have a difficult time of it (except obvious ones like the banjo...).

Part of that is that I was running through a PODxt Live. Most of the guitar models sound pretty nearly the same when run through that, in my experience. Granted, I haven't plugged into it in almost two years now, so my memory may be off.

Part of that is just time. I didn't know what to listen for. I didn't really know what I was hearing. With time, and lots of playing, that improves.

Part of hearing the differences now is owning an Axe-Fx. I thank god each day I plug into the Axe and listen to my guitar dynamics that I'm no longer running through something inferior. All the nuances, good or bad, are brought to light with this machine and I love it! It's excellent for learning about that kind of thing.

So... go ahead and use your existing guitar. It won't kill you or us. ...maybe some of us. :)
But always remember that, especially with the Axe, it is a *very* important part of shaping the sound.

-----
[edit]

Reading your posts in this thread, I'm guessing mine was a waste of time. :D

I wish I could help you with the setup, but I haven't run through a traditional cab before, and doing so ruins the one main suggestion I was going to make: trying different cab models.

Otherwise, I'd just suggest doing what's already been suggested. Pick one amp block, nothing else, and stick with it. Maybe throw some light reverb on for effect. Tweak *one* amp model. Use it to try to learn what *all* of the amp parameters do (basic and advanced). You probably won't figure all of them out, but it should hopefully help you get closer.

Usually when tweaking, I tweak to extremes and then settle on a value somewhere in between.

PG1:
I barely tweak the bass/mid/treb. Just slight amounts up/down. I tend to like drive, so I increase that *slightly.* I come back to this page a lot *after* messing with the advanced parameters. I usually leave the bright and boost switches off, just in case I want them on later.

PG2:
Presence and I don't get along often. Again, usually a minor tweak up/down. Any more/less sounds really bad to me.
Depth... I dunno... just not too high.
Damp... no idea.
Sag... no idea... I just tweak on these things....
Master... VERY IMPORTANT! this is like the master volume knob on a real amp.
Level... I only adjust this when I'm done. Otherwise, I try to use the main Level control for the patch. There's definitely good reasons for either method though.

ADV:
Input select... doesn't matter, as long as it's working.
Warmth... I tend to turn it up a little, but that could be giving you a little of your issue if it's up too high.
Thump... dial carefully. I keep it to a minimum most of the time, but enough so that it's evident.
Low-cut Freq. and Hi-cut Freq.... IMPORTANT! Tweak to taste, and keep a balanced final mix in mind.
Bright cap... yeah... hey, I dunno.
Tonestack Type: usually, I do Passive. Haven't had time to really get advanced with this and mess with other amp's stacks.
Tonestack Freq: IMPORTANT! ...again, Tweak to taste.
Tonestack Location: well... thankfully there's only three settings here. Sometimes it can change things subtly or sometimes obviously. Choose one of the settings and live with it. :)
Presence Frequency: IMPORTANT!...? -- remember how Presence and I don't get along? This would be kind of like giving a fruitcake to your evil mother-in-law. It's a messed-up attempt to repair the relationship that just isn't going to work, but she's obligated to receive and appreciate it anyway. It can help, really... I believe it can... I just don't get along with it.
Pwr Tube Bias... I dunno.
B+ Capacitance... I'm sure this does something incredibly useful.
Transformer LF/HF: IMPORTANT! yep. anything allowing you to adjust frequencies of things is pretty important, imho.
Transformer Match: As illustrated recently by Clawfinger (in a time warp that no longer exists, and I blame the cookies), this parameter is also IMPORTANT! really. worth saying it twice: IMPORTANT!
Spkr Res Freq: IMPORTANT! See? Frequency... important.
Stabilizer: I used to know what this does.
Pres/Depth Type: so yeah... I'm seeing this parameter for the first time just this hour. Gotta love firmware updates. :D

MIX...
Level... is what it says it is. Volume, not tone.
Bal... Bypass Mode... same as above, except not volume, but what they say they are.

I dunno if that'll help, but... maybe?
[/edit]
 
javajunkie said:
Regardless, the OP stated he was getting a fine a sound w/ his guitar and amp. The Axe-fx should be no different.

I'm making some progress with it. Thanks to the guys that gave useful suggestions. 15,000 points to each of you.
 
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