Thoughts on FW 14 AST and other Clean-ish amps?

Gamedojo said:
I think the Nuclear-Tone clean works well for such a low watt amp:


And here is a vibroverb clean:

And a princton Reverb clean:

All in all, I think the cleans are the best they've ever been with FW14. There is a muscle behind the clean IMO
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Those sound great (and so does the playing)! Can you post the presets so I can compare? Or at least the amp settings?
 
Variable said:
I would suggest that if anyone does this, they should record a base track and reamp it so we know that the dynamics are the same. It's too easy to get into the "feel" of an amp (which we know the Axe does VERY well) and alter your playing to compensate.

I might do a V13 AST vs V14 tonight. We'll see if I can wake myself up enough to get motivated ;)

Also, let's try keep it civilized in this thread guys. I know we seem to have two camps here, but it doesn't serve anyone's interests to get defensive or snippy. We all want great tone! :D
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So I WAS motivated. However, I hate to admit it, but I don't hear a huge different in the AST patch I just recorded between FW 13 and 14. Here was my process:

1) Record reference reamp guitar track.
2) Flash to FW 13.07
3) Do double-click-bypass reset of AST amp block
4) Change Gain to 3.0 and Tone to 7.56 (those are the only controls I modified)
5) Record from reamped guitar track.
6) Flash FW 14
7) Double-click-bypass AST reset
8) Change gain to 3.0 and Tone to 7.56
9) Record again from reamped source track.

I think the thing that mattered here is the double-bypass reset. I hear a little more hair on the FW14 recording, but it's not huge.
 
notalemming said:
I am at work now so it would not be until tonight. My settings are petty simple. Deluxe, gain at 2-2.5, bass mid & treble near 5, bright off, presence low, 1.5 or less. All else at default.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I set the gain around .97 for super clean. I would expect some breakup at 2-2.5
 
I no longer have an AST as I borrowed that amp for the model so I can't check it. I should probably just buy one to have in the reference collection.
 
the master of digital amp recreation owns the sweetest collection of real amps in the world.
 
FractalAudio said:
I no longer have an AST as I borrowed that amp for the model so I can't check it. I should probably just buy one to have in the reference collection.
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Heck, it was the Axe FX II that convinced me to go out and buy a Swart (that, and the extreme portability of the Atomic Jr).
 
Mike Snider said:
I set the gain around .97 for super clean. I would expect some breakup at 2-2.5
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I was at work and going off the top of my head. Actually, this setting in 13.07 was not super clean. It was what I would call dynamically clean in that lighter strums would be pretty clean & harder ones would get a light break-up. In v14 this setting it is broken up all the time.
 
notalemming said:
I was at work and going off the top of my head. Actually, this setting in 13.07 was not super clean. It was what I would call dynamically clean in that lighter strums would be pretty clean & harder ones would get a light break-up. In v14 this setting it is broken up all the time.
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What guitar/pickup?

Default system settings (amp gain etc.)?
 
notalemming said:
I was at work and going off the top of my head. Actually, this setting in 13.07 was not super clean. It was what I would call dynamically clean in that lighter strums would be pretty clean & harder ones would get a light break-up. In v14 this setting it is broken up all the time.
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Those setting are pretty clean here with Deluxe and a PRS Tremonti:

 
My 2cents.

First off, I also noticed a definite increase in gain when upgrading from 13.07 to 14. I play mostly clean, and mostly through the same patch based on the Vibratoverb but I also noticed the jump in my higher gain patches. Whereas in 13.07 the tone would break up only with harder, more dynamic picking, it happens immediately with 14.

That being said, I'm pretty sure I know why people get so concerned about this because I get the same thoughts myself. OK, it's fairly easy to reduce the break up by adjusting the input drive/trim and then maybe increasing the level to add some volume back. But the thing I always worry about is what is the cause of this increased gain? If it is simply a side effect of improved modeling technology then so be it, no worries. However, (and this is the real worry) I wonder if one of the other parameters somehow got reset (increased) in the upgrade process, say for example speaker drive, or Xformer match, or one of the compressor settings etc etc? If that happened, simply reducing the input drive/trim is just masking the effect, and the actual tone of the preset has changed forever. Now the problem is, without laboriously recording and cross-referencing each and every parameter in each block you would never know if this is the case, hence the niggling worry that eats away. Does that sound familiar to anyone else?

One solution, and I don't know if this is practical, would be to develop a diagnostic tool, maybe as an add-on to axe edit, that could take a snapshot of all preset settings both before and after FW upgrade and then compare them and highlight any changed settings which could then be reset to their original values. I would find that very useful and reassuring and could be used for other purposes as well. My first thought whenever a patch feels or sounds different, not just after a FW change, is that some obscure parameter has changed somehow with my being aware of it. It's just a thought.

Of course, if none of the actual settings are altered during the upgrade process then this is meaningless.
 
Not to stir the pot or contribute to either 'camp', I too am experiencing more gain in my clean amps. As I live in the clean to lo-gain world, I'm pretty tuned in to the presets I use.

Now, I had to re-flash my Axe II twice. The first time it sounded bad. Overly bright, hissy, just wrong. Re-flashed...it got better...set the global noise gate to zero..better. But still something off. Re-downloaded firmware, re-flashed and it sounds better still. Don't what's going on with the ones and zeros not finding their correct place in the firmware.

It's settled down to where I'm enjoying everything again, but, there IS a gain boost goin' on somewhere. I've been adjusting and things are sounding good again.
 
I did a couple basic patches of the AST and Deluxe Verb in V13.7 and made a couple MP3s. Put V14 back on, imported the presets, did an "update all presets" and remade the MP3s under V14...just doing basic cowboy chords while having my morning coffee so please excuse the clams! Recorded w/Audacity since my knowledge of recording fits nicely on the head of a pin.


https://soundcloud.com/jyflorida/deluxe-v13-7
https://soundcloud.com/jyflorida/deluxe-v14

https://soundcloud.com/jyflorida/ast-v13-7
https://soundcloud.com/jyflorida/ast-v14
 
Last edited:
I don't care if this model matches a real AST. I really like the one in FW14. Never would have checked it out if it hadn't been for this thread. I watched that video, had instant GAS, dialed up the model in the Axe...GAS gone. Playing it with a Tele is a magical experience.
 
Suggestion:
Have people upload presets
Have Fractal engineers do a side by side v13 vs v14
Use FRFR Direct

If they look and sound the same, then Proof is in the pudding as they say.

For those doing out to power amp, it is possible the output is distorting there a little.

If there is a difference then hopefully preset adjustments can be made to match the desire v13 sound for some.
 
knjaxefx2 said:
Suggestion:
Have people upload presets
Have Fractal engineers do a side by side v13 vs v14
Use FRFR Direct

If they look and sound the same, then Proof is in the pudding as they say.

For those doing out to power amp, it is possible the output is distorting there a little.

If there is a difference then hopefully preset adjustments can be made to match the desire v13 sound for some.
Click to expand...

You bring up a great point. I have only been comparing the output 2 amp/cab sound. Not sure if the all digital path was effected. I have a show tonight so ill know once I plug in the IEM.
Either way, I absolutely LOVE this Axe-FX. So glad I bought the new rig.
 
Karl Houseknecht said:
I don't care if this model matches a real AST. I really like the one in FW14. Never would have checked it out if it hadn't been for this thread. I watched that video, had instant GAS, dialed up the model in the Axe...GAS gone. Playing it with a Tele is a magical experience.
Click to expand...

I feel like Swarts and Teles were made for each other :) My Atomic Jr loves my American Standard! There is something awesome about how the notes just pop and jump with that combination.
 
I've just compared five of my reference amps with their models. Deluxe Reverb, Carr Rambler, Bandmaster, Princeton and Twin Reverb. The models are more accurate than ever. The only one that was off was the Bandmaster because the model assumes V1 has been removed and I had put V1 back in. Once I reduced the Master Volume to simulate putting V1 in the model was spot-on.

The breakup, pick response and response to rolling off the volume knob are so close that I cannot tell which is which when I do my blind A/B test.

Whether or not V14 is exactly the same as V13 I don't care. All I know is the models are uncannily accurate and sound great. When switching to the old modeling (which I can do in debug firmware) the pick response is not as accurate. It lacks power and punch and feels "congested" when picking lightly. It IS cleaner when picking lightly with the old modeling algorithm but it doesn't respond the same as the amps. The amps break up more when picking lightly. With the new modeling the breakup is the same when picking lightly.

FWIW my Deluxe Reverb is nearly impossible to get clean. With the volume on 2 it will still break up with my PRS (as will the model). Note that Fender amps are indicated from 1-10 whereas the Axe-Fx indicates from 0-10 so '2' on a Fender is approximately 1.1 on the Axe-Fx.
 
Coldsummer said:
My 2cents.

First off, I also noticed a definite increase in gain when upgrading from 13.07 to 14. I play mostly clean, and mostly through the same patch based on the Vibratoverb but I also noticed the jump in my higher gain patches. Whereas in 13.07 the tone would break up only with harder, more dynamic picking, it happens immediately with 14.

That being said, I'm pretty sure I know why people get so concerned about this because I get the same thoughts myself. OK, it's fairly easy to reduce the break up by adjusting the input drive/trim and then maybe increasing the level to add some volume back. But the thing I always worry about is what is the cause of this increased gain? If it is simply a side effect of improved modeling technology then so be it, no worries. However, (and this is the real worry) I wonder if one of the other parameters somehow got reset (increased) in the upgrade process, say for example speaker drive, or Xformer match, or one of the compressor settings etc etc? If that happened, simply reducing the input drive/trim is just masking the effect, and the actual tone of the preset has changed forever. Now the problem is, without laboriously recording and cross-referencing each and every parameter in each block you would never know if this is the case, hence the niggling worry that eats away. Does that sound familiar to anyone else?

One solution, and I don't know if this is practical, would be to develop a diagnostic tool, maybe as an add-on to axe edit, that could take a snapshot of all preset settings both before and after FW upgrade and then compare them and highlight any changed settings which could then be reset to their original values. I would find that very useful and reassuring and could be used for other purposes as well. My first thought whenever a patch feels or sounds different, not just after a FW change, is that some obscure parameter has changed somehow with my being aware of it. It's just a thought.

Of course, if none of the actual settings are altered during the upgrade process then this is meaningless.
Click to expand...

Parameters are never changed during a firmware upgrade, except when noted in the release notes.
 
FractalAudio said:
I've just compared five of my reference amps with their models. Deluxe Reverb, Carr Rambler, Bandmaster, Princeton and Twin Reverb. The models are more accurate than ever. The only one that was off was the Bandmaster because the model assumes V1 has been removed and I had put V1 back in. Once I reduced the Master Volume to simulate putting V1 in the model was spot-on.

The breakup, pick response and response to rolling off the volume knob are so close that I cannot tell which is which when I do my blind A/B test.

Whether or not V14 is exactly the same as V13 I don't care. All I know is the models are uncannily accurate and sound great. When switching to the old modeling (which I can do in debug firmware) the pick response is not as accurate. It lacks power and punch and feels "congested" when picking lightly. It IS cleaner when picking lightly with the old modeling algorithm but it doesn't respond the same as the amps. The amps break up more when picking lightly. With the new modeling the breakup is the same when picking lightly.

FWIW my Deluxe Reverb is nearly impossible to get clean. With the volume on 2 it will still break up with my PRS (as will the model). Note that Fender amps are indicated from 1-10 whereas the Axe-Fx indicates from 0-10 so '2' on a Fender is approximately 1.1 on the Axe-Fx.
Click to expand...

Of the ones you tested, the Deluxe is the only one I was noticing the gain issue on. jyflorida's test sounds more distorted in v14 than v13. The others for me are the 59 Bassman, Superverb & Matchless that are noticeably more distorted. Some I have had to lower input trim to .500, master trim to .750, lower the gain & lower the output level on the comp to get it back to being as clean as v13.07. Could you try one of those? I play a strat, vintage output. Please know I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I love the Axe & just want it to be as good as possible as I know you do too. Thanks! By the way, that's good info to know about the gain indications. Maybe to avoid confusion, make the Axe go from 1-10 like a real amp?
 
jyflorida said:
I did a couple basic patches of the AST and Deluxe Verb in V13.7 and made a couple MP3s. Put V14 back on, imported the presets, did an "update all presets" and remade the MP3s under V14...just doing basic cowboy chords while having my morning coffee so please excuse the clams! Recorded w/Audacity since my knowledge of recording fits nicely on the head of a pin.


https://soundcloud.com/jyflorida/deluxe-v13-7
https://soundcloud.com/jyflorida/deluxe-v14

https://soundcloud.com/jyflorida/ast-v13-7
https://soundcloud.com/jyflorida/ast-v14
Click to expand...

The V14 clips sound better.
 
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