The K10

[Dutch]

Start a group funding on it.

Indiegogo.com?
You can get funding going for anything these days.

 

[merlin17]

joegold,
put your ears 5" in front of your EVM12L at playing volume - that's what the microphone hears, too, and that's what you're hearing through the K10 if you use such an IR in the Axe.

 

[Jens]

@joegold

I am curious. Could you maybe post a patch or two with the IR. Then we can try it. Maybe the problem is not with the K10 but with the patch/IR. I have a k10 to try it on.

Another thing that I'd suggest is that when you change from the poweramp/guitar-cab setup to FRFR. It might not be good to use the same patches but instead starting with
an amp/IR (in the patch) and build it from there. Perhaps you already did that?

Jens

 

[Jens]

double post for some odd reason..

 

[gmfdeluxe]

Hi, just did the mod with the HF Speaker Phasechange. I am just wondering if the 700hz lowshelving is necessary, or is it peaking with the PEQ. Do I have to lower all frequencies at 700Hz up to 100Hz and so on -3dB?

 

[bladlus]

It doesn't make much sense to me to spend $1500 to test a sub-$1000 speaker, unless a group wants to go in together on it. It would be interesting to see how a low-end coaxial design compares. Anyone up for having an Ma-12 tested?

Start a group funding on it.

Indiegogo.com?
You can get funding going for anything these days.

I'd be up for chipping in on this if we get a lot of people.

 

[barhrecords]

I was curious about 3rd party testing of another loudspeaker system too.

I would expect it to reveal where the problems would be, but could I expect a 3rd party test lab to recommend making a change like reversing the polarity of the high frequence device?

- Richard

 

[Jay Mitchell]

All your facts and tests aren't going to make the K10 sound any better to me I'm afraid,

I never said they would. However, what you're hearing that you apparently don't like with the K10 is the sound of your Axe-Fx. That's not subjective.

But, I really have no idea why you feel the need to be so combative with nearly everybody who tries to engage with you on this or any forum.

I'm not being combative. I'm responding to misstatements from you. You're the one who's pissing on the thread, which has as its purpose assisting those who actually play through K10s in getting the best possible result. You do not use K10s, which tends to cast doubt on your motivation for posting here. You have made what would have been a simple, informative thread into a combative interchange. Please stop.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

It doesn't make much sense to me to spend $1500 to test a sub-$1000 speaker,

Me either. But it makes a lot more sense - and is a lot more likely to happen - than asking me to test one for free.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

I am just wondering if the 700hz lowshelving is necessary,

In order to get the results I described, yes.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Yet, these Yorkville powered studio monitors I just rented sound fine to me hi-end-wise,

Out of curiosity, I looked here: Yorkville Sound: élite. Note the HF "Dispersion" (more correctly, "beamwidth") of 100 x 25 degrees. If this is even roughly descriptive of what the HF horn does, I can with 100% confidence make the following statements:

1. The vertical beamwidth of 25 degrees can only be descriptive of the behavior of the HF horn at very high frequencies (greater than ~7kHz). This is due to basic physical principles that cannot be violated.

2. At lower frequencies, the horn's vertical beamwidth will be much broader than 25 degrees. At the crossover frequency, it will be 90 degrees or greater.

3. Because of this radically-collapsing HF directivity, the response of the speaker at any point outside of this extremely narrow vertical angle will be seriously lacking in high frequency content as compared to its on-axis response.

4. There is no possibility of a two-way speaker with a direct-radiating woofer and a horn HF with this kind of directivity to approach sonic transparency. The more "live" the acoustic environment, the more this failing will become obvious.

 

[Jack Napalm]

Me either. But it makes a lot more sense - and is a lot more likely to happen - than asking me to test one for free.

I think it makes more sense to just go buy a K10, make the mods and play some guitar.

The information that you have provided puts the K10 at the top of the list compared to all the other monitors that we have accurate tests and results on. I think its the only one on the list at this point. That's not to say that other solutions could be just as good or better but there is no data out there.

 

[ianx]

Cliff should clone Jay and include a copy with every purchase

 

[Jay Mitchell]

I think it makes more sense to just go buy a K10, make the mods and play some guitar.

While I see where you're coming from, I want to stress yet again that I am not recommending that anyone purchase any particular speaker.

That's not to say that other solutions could be just as good or better

That bears repeating.

If you already own a K10, the information in this thread will be useful in getting the best possible performance out of it. If you own something else, there is no reason to go and buy a K10 just because of the tips in this thread.

 

[Fro]

Well, I have a K10, and I hated it with the Axe Fx. But, in all fairness, I just wasn't digging the general concept of FRFR, and also most likely wasn't running something quite right. Currently the K10 is a happy little vocal monitor. But since I've last tried using it for FRFR, the Axe has gone through a few firmware changes, and I've learned a lot about programming the Axe. When I have time I will set up a basic amp/cab patch from scratch and apply these suggestions. Now if I still don't like it, I won't feel like I need to try 50 more FRFR solutions for comparison. My understanding is that the K10 with the wiring mod and shelving applied will be good representation of and FRFR solution for that price range. Thanks for the research and the tips.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Well, I have a K10, and I hated it with the Axe Fx. But, in all fairness, I just wasn't digging the general concept of FRFR, and also most likely wasn't running something quite right. Currently the K10 is a happy little vocal monitor.

Here's a key point: if a monitor sounds natural with vocals and recorded music, then it is suitable for use as an FRFR monitor with the Axe-Fx. The requirements are the same: neutral presentation of the signal that is applied to the input.

Edit: the recommendations here will also enhance the performance of the K10 when used as a vocal monitor or main PA.

 

[joegold]

joegold,
put your ears 5" in front of your EVM12L at playing volume - that's what the microphone hears, too, and that's what you're hearing through the K10 if you use such an IR in the Axe.

Yes. I know.
That's why engineers and sound-men who use close-mic-ing techniques use EQ to tailor the signal.

 

[joegold]

@joegold
I am curious. Could you maybe post a patch or two with the IR. Then we can try it. Maybe the problem is not with the K10 but with the patch/IR. I have a k10 to try it on.

Another thing that I'd suggest is that when you change from the poweramp/guitar-cab setup to FRFR. It might not be good to use the same patches but instead starting with
an amp/IR (in the patch) and build it from there. Perhaps you already did that?

Jens

View attachment C1FR.syx
View attachment S1FR.syx

These are the two presets I was working with when I was trying out the K10 and trying to make it sound as musical (to me, for my purposes) as possible.
The PEQ at the end of the Layout in the C1FR (Clean FR) preset is not really necessary and is Bypassed.
The PEQ at the end of the S1FR (Sol FR) preset sounds better when it's on.

These were made for a Strat with Suhr V60LP pickups.
The clean preset is for any pickup combination and is a bright 100% clean rhythm tone suitable for R&B and pop music chording.
The solo tone is for the bridge + middle pickup position or the bridge only. It's a bit muddy on the positions that use the neck pickup.
The IR is just the stock 2 X 12 Black IR.

*This* is as good as I was able to get the K10 to sound for me in the time I had it.
These presets sound fine through my NS10s and the Yorkville YSM2P studio monitors I just rented.
They sound OK thru the K10 too, just not great.
I have similar presets that do sound great, to me, through my EVM-12Ls (with Cab Block bypassed).

The term that kept coming to mind for the K10s top end as I was working with it was "clangorous" but having just looked that up in the dictionary it's not wholly apt.
"Metallic", "ringing", "hard", "spikey", etc. are other highly scientific terms that come to mind.

[You'll notice that with C1FR, using the double Verb sim, that I have the Master set low for a non-Master-Vol-Amp-Type and the Drive set high.
Normally that would be reversed with the Master cranked and the Drive much lower than it is.
This preset was also an experiment about using a higher Drive setting with this sim.
I found that by using these Master and Drive values I was able to get the other controls to behave much more like they do on a real Fender Twin, especially the Treble parameter. With a low Drive value the DV's Treble control, when the Bright Switch is on, the sim is simply too bright and needs to be at 12:00 or lower.
Getting the Drive control of the preamp sim above 6 seems (to me) to bring the Treble control back into the same range, sound-wise, as the way it works on a real Twin which I would normally run between 6 and 7 when I have its Bright switch on.
But usually, when I work with the DV sim for a clean bright tone, I'd have the Master cranked, the Drive around 3.0, the bright Switch on, the Treble parameter below 12:00 (Passive tone Stack btw) and the Presence parameter (which doesn't even exist on a real Twin) at about 10:00 or 11:00.]

 

[joegold]

I never said they would. However, what you're hearing that you apparently don't like with the K10 is the sound of your Axe-Fx. That's not subjective.

Well, if the K10 really is as good at accurately reproducing the Axe as you say it is, then I guess you're right. Maybe I don't like the sound of the Axe. lol

I'm not being combative. I'm responding to misstatements from you. You're the one who's pissing on the thread, which has as its purpose assisting those who actually play through K10s in getting the best possible result. You do not use K10s, which tends to cast doubt on your motivation for posting here. You have made what would have been a simple, informative thread into a combative interchange. Please stop.

I have used a K10 btw and, once again, I might even buy one in the next few days.
Sheesh.

"Pissing on the thread".
Oiy.

"your motivation for posting here"
Geez.

You're too much man.
Chill.
We're just talking here.

 

[joegold]

Out of curiosity, I looked here: Yorkville Sound: élite. Note the HF "Dispersion" (more correctly, "beamwidth") of 100 x 25 degrees. If this is even roughly descriptive of what the HF horn does, I can with 100% confidence make the following statements:

1. The vertical beamwidth of 25 degrees can only be descriptive of the behavior of the HF horn at very high frequencies (greater than ~7kHz). This is due to basic physical principles that cannot be violated.

2. At lower frequencies, the horn's vertical beamwidth will be much broader than 25 degrees. At the crossover frequency, it will be 90 degrees or greater.

3. Because of this radically-collapsing HF directivity, the response of the speaker at any point outside of this extremely narrow vertical angle will be seriously lacking in high frequency content as compared to its on-axis response.

4. There is no possibility of a two-way speaker with a direct-radiating woofer and a horn HF with this kind of directivity to approach sonic transparency. The more "live" the acoustic environment, the more this failing will become obvious.

Thanks for the info on the E10P.
I had one of those on rent at the same time as I was renting the K10, and except for one brief moment (when my ears must have been fatigued), I thought the K10 sounded much better, especially in the top end.

But the Yorkville "studio monitors" that I've been talking about are the YSMP2 model.