The K10

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@joegold:
Thanks for the presests, always interesting to see other peoples approach :)

I just played the presets a bit. They are a bit bright I guess, especially as you turn up the volume (but that's not really a surprise..) It is not really icepicks in your ears though.
My mackie is A LOT worse (but it is of course also A LOT cheaper :lol )

Why do you have bright switch engaged if you think they are too bright? That does not really make any sense to me You also boost or leave the treble at noon.
another option would be to filter out highs in the advanced section you did not do that either.

Jens
 
Jens said:
@joegold:
Thanks for the presests, always interesting to see other peoples approach :)

I just played the presets a bit. They are a bit bright I guess, especially as you turn up the volume (but that's not really a surprise..) It is not really icepicks in your ears though.
My mackie is A LOT worse (but it is of course also A LOT cheaper :lol )
Click to expand...

It's supposed to be a bright clean tone that cuts through the mix.

Jens said:
Why do you have bright switch engaged if you think they are too bright? That does not really make any sense to me You also boost or leave the treble at noon.
another option would be to filter out highs in the advanced section you did not do that either.
Jens
Click to expand...

I tried all that. This is what sounded best to me through that speaker.
 
joe,

you're not trying to use the same preset for your EVM12L (with cab bypassed) and FRFR, do you?
That just won't work in most cases, I had to totally alter my patches after going FRFR, using A LOT less hi end.
While the 2*12 black sounds cool it IS a trebly IR.
I haven't tried your patches so far.

BTW: I once had a Strat with V60LP and I found them "peaky", FLs sound better to my ears.
 
joegold said:
It's supposed to be a bright clean tone that cuts through the mix.
Click to expand...

I know that you said that that was the best you could get out of the speaker, but the above statement really sounds like you are tweaking with your eyes and not your ears.

You did not try Yek's presets or Scotts or any of all the other stuff floating around to see if it was the same? I know that Yeks fender presets sound really good (on both my mackie and the K10), and they are aimed at rhythm guitar.

But that is of course too late now since you gave up on FRFR.

Jens
 
"you're not trying to use the same preset for your EVM12L (with cab bypassed) and FRFR, do you?"

No. I start with a preset that works on the 12L (with cab block bypassed) and then I tweak it for the K10 with the 2 X 12 Black IR as best as I can.
I've also tried lots and lots and lots of other IRs but the 2 X 12 is as close as it gets for what I'm after.
It'd be great if I could get it to sound as good through the K10 as it does through the 12L or better.
I can come close through the K10, but it's always less musical sounding.
Haven't been able to exceed the 12L yet through the K10 or any other FRFR rig.
 
"I know that you said that that was the best you could get out of the speaker, but the above statement really sounds like you are tweaking with your eyes and not your ears."

Nonsense.
I don't see why you would come to that conclusion based on what I've said.

"You did not try Yek's presets or Scotts or any of all the other stuff floating around to see if it was the same? I know that Yeks fender presets sound really good (on both my mackie and the K10), and they are aimed at rhythm guitar."

I've tried other people's presets before, including Scott and yek, and generally don't like them.
Most folks here don't use the word "clean" the same way I do. lol

"But that is of course too late now since you gave up on FRFR."

Well, I haven't really said that, but I'm getting close to giving it up. lol

If a tone works on my power amp + 12L rig I see no reason in the world why I should not be able to achieve a similar tone using an FRFR rig providing I have an IR that is not too dissimilar to the 12L.
 
joegold said:
I can come close through the K10, but it's always less musical sounding.
Click to expand...

What does this mean to you? I had similar experiences in trying to replicate some things and what did it for me was using IR's from my favorite cab. A combination of IR's really. I don't fret over the nuances when using other IR's for certain things but I can sometimes hear a difference in some IR's.
 
Look people.
This isn't my thread.
It's not about me.
I may rent a K10 again and try Jay's low cut shelf settings.
I may even buy a K10 and do the mod to the tweeter too.
Now that I know that the K10 is more or less a decent standard for FRFR response I'll be less in the dark to some degree.
Sometimes I noticed with that speaker that when its 100hz roll-off (Ext Sub switch) was engaged it had a way of smoothing out the way the top end sounded a little bit too.
I don't have any idea why that should be so, but it seemed that way to me at the time.
[Maybe it's that having all that extra bottom end (w/o the bass cut) causes the ear to hear a bigger contrast between the hi freq content and the low freq content which has a way of making the highs seem more prominent? I don't know.]
So, with Jay's 700hz low cut shelf I might get a similar benefit.

And if the K10 is as good as I'm gonna get at this price point and form factor then it deserves another chance from me because I'm interested in working FRFR but am not interested in paying lots of $ to do it or in lugging around anything bigger than the K10.

So can we please keep any posts about trying to help me tweak the K10 for another day and another thread?
Thanks.
 
"I know that you said that that was the best you could get out of the speaker, but the above statement really sounds like you are tweaking with your eyes and not your ears."

Nonsense.
I don't see why you would come to that conclusion based on what I've said.
Click to expand...

When you say it sounds too bright and

1. Don't cut any treble or high frequencies at all.
2. Turn on the bright switch
3. Choose a very bright IR

And the say the reason is that

It's supposed to be a bright clean tone that cuts through the mix.
Click to expand...

I get the impression you are not setting the parameters with your ears but with your eyes or
thinking this tone sounds good through my guitar cab so I shouldn't need to change too much
to get it to sound good on the QSC.

I think I understand what you mean that your tones are annoying in the highs on the K10, but I think it has more to do with the bright switch and the patch, not the K10.

Jens

EDIT: But fair enough, let's just leave it at that :)
 
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Oiy.
1. I have tried cutting the highs. Doing so does not get the tone I want.
2. I have tried getting the tone I want w/o the Bright switch and then increasing the Treble and/or Presence. Doing so does not yield the sound I'm after.
If I was using a real Twin I would have the Bright switch on.
I've tried lots of other ways to taper the top-end too including using other amp sims.
The preset I posted is as close as I've been able to get to what I want to hear via FRFR.
It sounds fine on other speakers. It sounds OK on the K10 but the highs are peaky and unappealing.
EQ'ing them out sacrifices the cut I want/need to hear.
I can get that cut on other speakers without it sounding annoying.
What else can I tell you?
3. I've tried lots of other IRs.

4. I am tweaking with my ears. :cry
5. I gave up long ago on trying to get the same tone through the K10 that I get from the 12L.
What I'm trying to do is to get a similar, equally or more musical, tone through the K10.
 
joegold said:
"Metallic", "ringing", "hard", "spikey", etc. are other highly scientific :) terms that come to mind.
Click to expand...
I'm playing this preset through my monitor as I type. I agree with all the above descriptive terms. That is exactly how the preset sounds. The speaker is not causing what you hear, the preset is. FWIW, it is anything but muddy with the neck pickup on my Strat.

You'll notice that with C1FR, using the double Verb sim, that I have the Master set low for a non-Master-Vol-Amp-Type and the Drive set high.
Click to expand...
Uhh, no. I'm looking at the amp block in that preset right now, and exactly the opposite is true. You've got the Master max'ed out at 10 and Drive set to 2.48.

Are you sure you uploaded the preset you intended? Given the discrepancy between your description and the preset itself, I'm hesitant to spend any more time on it. Please check and confirm.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
I'm playing this preset through my monitor as I type. I agree with all the above descriptive terms. That is exactly how the preset sounds. The speaker is not causing what you hear, the preset is.
Click to expand...

OK. Thanks. I get it. You don't have to keep hammering your point in over and over again. :(
I'll take that under consideration the next time I try using the K10.

Jay Mitchell said:
FWIW, it is anything but muddy with the neck pickup on my Strat.
Click to expand...

That comment was about the S1FR preset not the C1FR preset.

Jay Mitchell said:
Uhh, no. I'm looking at the amp block in that preset right now, and exactly the opposite is true. You've got the Master max'ed out at 10 and Drive set to 2.48.

Are you sure you uploaded the preset you intended? Given the discrepancy between your description and the preset itself, I'm hesitant to spend any more time on it. Please check and confirm.
Click to expand...

Oops. :eek:ops
Looks like you're right and I goofed.
The C1FR preset does use the low Drive and hi Master values.
I was mixing up the high Drive experiment with another Preset.
Sorry.
Regardless, the C1FR preset is the one that I was working with when I had the K10 over here.
Does it sound any better to you when the PEQ Block is activated?
 
Jay Mitchell said:
Here's a key point: if a monitor sounds natural with vocals and recorded music, then it is suitable for use as an FRFR monitor with the Axe-Fx. The requirements are the same: neutral presentation of the signal that is applied to the input.

Edit: the recommendations here will also enhance the performance of the K10 when used as a vocal monitor or main PA.
Click to expand...

Jay,

When adding a QSC sub to the K10, would the complete system need to be re-tested to re-establish corrective EQ? Or would the original suggestions still hold? I'm thinking for FOH.

Thanks,
Richard
 
Joey, I can find no evidence in your preset of a real effort to get what you say you want. The only things in the amp block that you've changed from their default settings are Drive, MV, and Presence (Edit: and you turned on the Bright switch). Show me a speaker through which this preset does not sound "harsh," "brittle," etc. with a Strat, and I'll show you a speaker with a serious high-frequency deficit.

Without knowing exactly what you're going for, I'm unable to take this any further. If you'll provide a link to a clip with a guitar sound that is a good representation of the sound you want - as free of reverb, chorus, etc., as possible - I may spend some time trying to help you get there. Otherwise, all I know is what you don't like. While I also don't like it, that's really not enough information.
 
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Joey: I'll download your patches when I get home and try them through my HS80m monitors. And I'll check them out through my K12's as well. Probably won't sound exactly like the K10, but I'd wager they're pretty close.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
Joey, I can find no evidence in your preset of a real effort to get what you say you want. The only things in the amp block that you've changed from their default settings are Drive, MV, and Presence. Show me a speaker through which this preset does not sound "harsh," "brittle," etc. with a Strat, and I'll show you a speaker with a serious high-frequency deficit.

Without knowing exactly what you're going for, I'm unable to take this any further. If you'll provide a link to a clip with a guitar sound that is a good representation of the sound you want - as free of reverb, chorus, etc., as possible - I may spend some time trying to help you get there. Otherwise, all I know is what you don't like. While I also don't like it, that's really not enough information.
Click to expand...

I've spent many hours tweaking the Advanced Amp Parameter to no avail.
Your "evidence" to the contrary, I've made lots of effort.
Sheesh.
This preset, re-tweaked for the 12L of course, sounds fine through my 12L, and 12Ls are not known for their "high-frequency deficit".

I haven't asked you or anyone else here to "take this further".
My initial comments about the K10s top-end had to do with with your tweeter phase reversal mod.
All I wanted to know was whether or not that mod would affect the way the K10's top-end sounds to me.
You answered that with a "no"about 20 posts ago.
I think we can drop this.

FWIW
I'm planning on renting a K10 again this evening and giving it another go, based on the info in this thread.

"What I'm after" probably originates from the tone I used to get from my Triaxis' Clean Green Channel for close to 15 years, which was the only tone on the TA that I really liked.
The Axe's USA Clean sim is based on the MKIV's Clean Channel and/or the TA's Clean Yellow channel.
When I first got the Axe, I think I remember someone saying that the TA's Clean Green channel was not represented in the Axe because it was basically a Fender Blackface circuit, so the best approximation of it in the Axe would be the old Blackface sim or the current DV sim.
The USA Clean sim never seemed to be able to do the job just right.

Now I see that the Axe II actually has a TA Clean Green sim in it.
So I'll probably be starting another thread here asking if that can be ported over to the Ultra or if there are settings of any of the existing amp sims that can better approximate that circuit.
 
joegold said:
I've spent many hours tweaking the Advanced Amp Parameter to no avail.
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But somehow wound up with every one of them back at default? There are several advanced parameters that, if adjusted judiciously away from their default values, will decrease harshness with very little, if any, collateral effect on tonal balance. It's somewhat surprising to me that you could have really explored them but still aren't making use of any of them.

I haven't asked you or anyone else here to "take this further".
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It is clear - by your own account - that you have thus far been unsuccessful getting sounds you want from FRFR systems. There are only two possibilities:

1. You have already decided that you can't possibly get what you want with FRFR.

2. You acknowledge the possibility that what you want is in there and you just haven't yet found it.

If 1. above is the case, then why in hell are you posting in this thread? If 2., OTOH, why are you so indignant when people who have been successful with Axe-Fx/FRFR offer to help you?

"What I'm after" probably originates from the tone I used to get from my Triaxis' Clean Green Channel
Click to expand...
Sounds, Joey. We have to hear sounds. Naming your past equipment inventory is of no help whatever.
 
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