The end of the "amp in th room" discussion for me

K

krcassid

Inspired
I have been using the Axe since the Ultra was 1st introduced. I have tried virtually every FRFR solution and have never been truly happy with the sound I got "live in the room/stage" although recording and FOH were excellent. I have been using a pair of RCF NX12SMAs for about 5 years. I am pretty sure I've read every thread on the "amp in the room" phenomena and found that I was 100% in agreement that the Axe did not measure up in this regard (although I was fully willing to accept that this was just my inability to dial it in correctly).

I should 1st say that I have a studio with a pretty amazing collection of amps dating back nearly 40 years. Amongst them:

2 1965 Fender Pro Reverbs
2 Blackface Fender Twins
3 Fuchs ODS (2 50s and a 100)
2 vintage AC30s
2 Vintage AC15s
3 1970s (Reeves era) Hiwatt DR103s
Pretty much everything Mesa Boogie made in the 80s including:
Mark 2c
Triaxis
Quad Pre
Studio Pre
2:90 Power
20/20 power
And many others...

So, the Axe sits side by side with all these stereo pairs and, IMHO, has never measured up in the room. About 3-4 years ago, I pretty much stopped using my Axe FX except for FOH and in studio. So, when I want to "hear" an amp, I use amps. But, still, something kept telling me that there should be a solution.

Recently, I was reading one of Cliff's comments on speakers moving air etc and today I decided to do what everybody has been saying forever (call me stupid) and plugged my Axe into the Mesa 2:90 power amp and into 2-2 X 12s each loaded with an EV12L and an Alnico Gold. I was messing around getting the routing correct and had not even turned off global power amps or cabs when, BAM!!! Amp in the room all day!!!

It was the 59 Bass guy (not a preset I use) running through the Mesa 2:90 and it was EXACTLY what I always wanted from my Axe, even with cab and power amp sims on!! I was so excited that I decided to post this before even messing with the Power amp and cab modeling. I am sure that, once I get these off and everything dialed in, I will be far MORE amazed!

So, for any of you who are as slow-witted as me, and have failed to use a power amp and a cab with the Axe but are still dissatisfied with FRFR, the discussion is over. It works, and it works beautifully. This from a guy who typically plays 3 Hiwatt DR103s in a W/D/W configuration so I know how an amp in the room sounds.

To those of you who figured this out years ago, I apologize for being so slow on the uptake and putting you through the semi-obvious realizations above. But, if there are others as slow-witted as me. Your search is over.

PS: the Mesa 20/20 will allow me to get that EL84 sound for those type of amps. But, what I am SUPER excited about (and yet to try) is that my Hiwatts all have added inputs to their power sections (non-destructive--post preamp) so I can run other preamps thru the Hiwatt power sections. I'm a Hiwatt addict and, to me, there is nothing like the balls of a vintage DR103. My next exploration will be to plug the Axe into the power sections of 2 DR103s.

Can't wait!

So, the only question I have now is: why didn't I listen to all you power amp/ cab guys YEARS ago?
 
Agreed, that's exactly how I have been doing 'amp in the room' as well, with a 2:90. I have been buying 2x12 cabs, and now I have cabs a plenty! Every time I get a new cab or speaker, it's like buying a cab pack but for real!
 
so... the long short... the ultimate answer is:
you ear the "amp in the room" just because you use an amp in the room?

let me clarify what Cliff means about "moving air":
if you play the Axe through headphones or little pc speakers or even little mixing monitors with low output you CAN'T get any "amp in the room" feel!

if you play your AxeFx through 2 BIG&FAT 600watt each PA frfr speakers loud enough... like me... well... trust me... you will have all the amp in the room feel you need without messing with tons of amp heads and cabs (you lucky guy!!!)
 
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The problem with FRFR are the high frequencies at listening position - for me! Since I have used my ultra (now axe fx II) I have a 1x12 cab with a greenback. It's the same sound I had the last 40 years with regular tube amps. I prefer 1x12 because they don't beam like a 4x12 and I have a wider range with constant sound on stage. Two lines go to FOH - same sound every show. Nothing can beat this setup!
 
GuttaLaser said:
so... the long short... the ultimate answer is:
you ear the "amp in the room" just because you use an amp in the room?

let me clarify what Cliff means about "moving air":
if you play the Axe through headphones or little pc speakers or even little mixing monitors with low output you CAN'T get any "amp in the room" feel!

if you play your AxeFx through 2 BIG&FAT 600watt each PA frfr speakers loud enough... like me... well... trust me... you will have all the amp in the room feel you need without messing with tons of amp heads and cabs (you lucky guy!!!)
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Actually, I have 2 900 watt 12" RCF NXS in the room right on top of the 2 x 12s. They dont do it at all and they are plenty loud. Theyre is a HUGE difference between the output of those 2 X 12s powered by a 90w 2:90 and the RCFs which don't cut it. Again, I am perfectly willing to admit that this may be entirely due to my inabilty to dial in the FRFR. But, I don't have to dial in the 2 X 12s. They just rock!

hotlegs said:
The problem with FRFR are the high frequencies at listening position - for me! Since I have used my ultra (now axe fx II) I have a 1x12 cab with a greenback. It's the same sound I had the last 40 years with regular tube amps. I prefer 1x12 because they don't beam like a 4x12 and I have a wider range with constant sound on stage. Two lines go to FOH - same sound every show. Nothing can beat this setup!
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I'll still go Axe-FOH and I'll still use my Axe in the studio. But, when I want an "amp in the room", I've found my solution (as you have)
 
You are hearing an amp in the room sound because you are playing an AMP in the ROOM! :D

The big difference is the sound of a CAB versus a MIC'd cab (which is what an IR is providing).

Listen to any of your favorite recordings... There is no amp in the room sound there, because it was recorded with a mic on a cab...

But yes, if you can't get passed the difference, it does work really nicely!
 
I hesitate to start this discussion again. But, I think there is a much bigger difference than simply the IRs. In my "test", I took the 2 RCFs and sat them on top of the 2 x 12s. Now, keep in mind, the RCFs are (I think?) 900w each vs 90w for the 2:90. There is no question the RCFs are WAY louder. It's not about loud. It's about the feeling of those 2X12s hitting me in the chest. Now, I'm sure everybody will say that I could achieve the same thing if I properly EQ'd, used the right IRs, mixed them appropriately... But, I just plugged in the 2:90 and got "awesome" with zero effort!

This is not a knock on the AXE or on FRFR. I get it and I use it FRFR in studio/ FOH. But, after many years of trying to make FRFR "work" as "amp in the room", I found a much easier way.

I am totally willing to buy that all the guys who have done A/B tests over the years can make FRFR sound the same. But, I tried very hard for a long time (at least 6 different FRFR setups, every conceivable IR pack...) But, in minutes with the power amp/ cabs, I achieved 100% of what I needed to "feel" my amp.

For those who adopted this years ago, pardon my ignorance.

For those who can do it FRFR, you are better men than I!
 
Hopefully for everyone else too.

I always wants my guitar in a mix more than my amp in a room anyway.
 
@krcassid your approach, amp + guitar cab, is the easiest road for the amp in the room experience.

There are so many facets to it. It is about the sound but also about the way it feels to play too.

When I am playing my brain is perceiving the sound differently than when I am "passive" listening.

That is why preset demos can sound so good but when I load the preset and play it, I think meh.
 
Like I said before a frfr cab sounds different than a guitar cab! Like krcassid I was never able to find a good guitar tone with full range cabs. Maybe I'm too old.
 
hotlegs said:
Like I said before a frfr cab sounds different than a guitar cab! Like krcassid I was never able to find a good guitar tone with full range cabs. Maybe I'm too old.
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Too funny! I thought EXACTLY the same thing! My "pro" days were largely in the 60s and 70s when there were no IEMs and we all used 100w stacks. Net/net, I lost a ton of my hearing. I kept thinking that the issue was my ears! Maybe it is :(
 
krcassid said:
I hesitate to start this discussion again. But, I think there is a much bigger difference than simply the IRs. In my "test", I took the 2 RCFs and sat them on top of the 2 x 12s. Now, keep in mind, the RCFs are (I think?) 900w each vs 90w for the 2:90. There is no question the RCFs are WAY louder. It's not about loud. It's about the feeling of those 2X12s hitting me in the chest. Now, I'm sure everybody will say that I could achieve the same thing if I properly EQ'd, used the right IRs, mixed them appropriately... But, I just plugged in the 2:90 and got "awesome" with zero effort!

This is not a knock on the AXE or on FRFR. I get it and I use it FRFR in studio/ FOH. But, after many years of trying to make FRFR "work" as "amp in the room", I found a much easier way.

I am totally willing to buy that all the guys who have done A/B tests over the years can make FRFR sound the same. But, I tried very hard for a long time (at least 6 different FRFR setups, every conceivable IR pack...) But, in minutes with the power amp/ cabs, I achieved 100% of what I needed to "feel" my amp.

For those who adopted this years ago, pardon my ignorance.

For those who can do it FRFR, you are better men than I!
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It isn't about "loud"... You are comparing two different things...

Remember that the whole "amp in the room" should really be called "cab in the room".

If you feed your Axe Fx into a PA you will get the same basic sound as if you mic your real cab and feed it into the PA (assuming the real cab is isolated and not bleeding over the PA).

The amp in this case is the Axe Fx plus power amp. No different than if you swapped one amp head for another.

I'm not knocking what you are doing. If it works for you that's great, because you are the only person who can say what sounds best to you.

In my case, I could definitely work with one good traditional cab (and I did for about 9 months in the early days) because I use the same global cab block in all my presets... But, by band is 100% direct to IEM these days... And I use Xitone cabs when playing at home because I can change my cabs any time I like.

Glad it's working for you!
 
hotlegs said:
Like I said before a frfr cab sounds different than a guitar cab! Like krcassid I was never able to find a good guitar tone with full range cabs. Maybe I'm too old.
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Try to make it sound like your favorite guitar recording! That was the "aha moment" for me in the early days.

Remember that you are almost always chasing a recorded tone from your influences and idols...

Nobody but you and maybe your bandmates will really ever experience your actual anp+cab sound directly. They will hear it from the stage 30+ feet away, from a different height and very different dispersion.. Or mic'd thru the PA.

It's a hard transition... But once you get your head around it, it's great!
 
unix-guy said:
Nobody but you and maybe your bandmates will really ever experience your actual anp+cab sound directly. They will hear it from the stage 30+ feet away, from a different height and very different dispersion.. Or mic'd thru the PA.
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This is truly the key. As I said, I'll still use the Axe direct for everybody BUT me. Really, this is not about stage or studio. It is about just playing (frequently in the studio). I cannot get the same MOJO FRFR. Even in my studio, I will use the power amp/ cab to "listen" to while I listen to the mix/ click (which is getting FRFR) in one IEM or headphone. I always do this in the studio, even when using real amps. The mix I hear in the headphones (which will sound awesome on the recording) is not what I need to hear to make my fingers go.

For me, (like many guys--I assume), the majority of my playing is not live or in the studio (I'm mostly retired). 90% of my playing is IN THE ROOM (or studio). So, this is 100% about what I feel & hear, not about what goes on tape or to FOH. The Axe FRFR is still, far and away, the best solution for these applications
 
FRFR for live/foh processed "in the mix" tone.

Power amp+cab for "amp in the room" sound.

It's really that simple.
 
If it's that simple (and it really is), why do we struggle with this so much? In my case, I felt like a "failure" if I couldn't make FRFR work like "amp in the room". And, I'd be willing to bet that 1/2 the people on this forum still disagree--that it CAN be done. Think of all the threads from guys who were A/Bing amps and the Axe side by side and "couldn't tell the difference". I kept thinking: "what is wrong with me?"

Well, maybe I don't "get it". But, I GOT it!

Now, next step (I would suppose) is to get a Matrix for the cabs so I can utilize power amp sims. I would think that all Cliff's hard work to recreate those power sections could still be utilized if I use a "flat" power amp instead of the Tube amps. I think it's really what was said above. It's not really the "amp in the room". It's the "cab in the room". But, is this true? Who has tried both: standard tube power amps and SS amps into cabs w/ power amp sims on? Is there some "secret sauce" in the tube amp/ cab relationship that is not replicated with power amp sim/ SS power/ Cab? If not, the Matrix would be superior to the 2:90, right?
 
krcassid said:
If it's that simple (and it really is), why do we struggle with this so much? In my case, I felt like a "failure" if I couldn't make FRFR work like "amp in the room". And, I'd be willing to bet that 1/2 the people on this forum still disagree--that it CAN be done. Think of all the threads from guys who were A/Bing amps and the Axe side by side and "couldn't tell the difference". I kept thinking: "what is wrong with me?"

Well, maybe I don't "get it". But, I GOT it!

Now, next step (I would suppose) is to get a Matrix for the cabs so I can utilize power amp sims. I would think that all Cliff's hard work to recreate those power sections could still be utilized if I use a "flat" power amp instead of the Tube amps. I think it's really what was said above. It's not really the "amp in the room". It's the "cab in the room". But, is this true? Who has tried both: standard tube power amps and SS amps into cabs w/ power amp sims on? Is there some "secret sauce" in the tube amp/ cab relationship that is not replicated with power amp sim/ SS power/ Cab? If not, the Matrix would be superior to the 2:90, right?
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So like you I have always felt straight up FRFR stage monitoring fell short of my expectations. While the FOH results are great, the FRFR on stage sound just didn't have "it". I have used a cabinet on stage in conjunction with a CLR for years and do like what that setup gives me. I've used 2:90, VHT, Atomic and now Matrix power amps along with the Axe. I think the Matrix is great power amp for this type of setup. It has a good feel, very tube like sounds and response and has plenty of volume. The clincher for me is that it doesn't weigh a ton. I am using the power amp sims in the axe.
In my experience, all tube power amps impart their own sonic stamp on the source feeding them so all preamps tend to sound more alike than through the Matrix. For me, I like to hear the difference of a Fender to a Marshall and the Matrix allows this to come thru more than any of the above tube power amps I've used. Not saying it's better, but it is more neutral in its reproduction of the source sound.
Hope this helps.
 
GuttaLaser said:
if you play your AxeFx through 2 BIG&FAT 600watt each PA frfr speakers loud enough... like me... well... trust me... you will have all the amp in the room feel you need without messing with tons of amp heads and cabs (you lucky guy!!!)
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No, you won't. You will have a super loud micced amp tone, it'll have the benefits that come from volume but if you are picky it will not be the same. It may sound great, it may sound/feelhow YOU want, but in the context of this long-term recurring discussion it is not the same.

Sorry. I agree with the OP. I am one of the guys who has always said this debate is dumb because the solution is pretty obvious and the FAS products are phenomenal in both scenarios but the outboard rig has to be varied to acquire the desired result, at some point physical noise has to be made and the output devices and method matters. My only compromise has been I do go solid state with my power amp so I get the AxeFx doing modeling of the power section and am extremely happy with it. Thus in this type of rig, the cab is the only thing you are locked down on.
 
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muudrock said:
So like you I have always felt straight up FRFR stage monitoring fell short of my expectations. While the FOH results are great, the FRFR on stage sound just didn't have "it". I have used a cabinet on stage in conjunction with a CLR for years and do like what that setup gives me. I've used 2:90, VHT, Atomic and now Matrix power amps along with the Axe. I think the Matrix is great power amp for this type of setup. It has a good feel, very tube like sounds and response and has plenty of volume. The clincher for me is that it doesn't weigh a ton. I am using the power amp sims in the axe.
In my experience, all tube power amps impart their own sonic stamp on the source feeding them so all preamps tend to sound more alike than through the Matrix. For me, I like to hear the difference of a Fender to a Marshall and the Matrix allows this to come thru more than any of the above tube power amps I've used. Not saying it's better, but it is more neutral in its reproduction of the source sound.
Hope this helps.
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This is exactly what I would expect and your experience is exactly what I needed. Thx! The 2:90, 20/20, Hiwatt power amps are all great. But, unless you are using them with Mesa amps and Hiwatts, it won't be right. IE: I'm a big Vox guy. I can run Axe Voxes thru the EL84 20/20 but I know it won't be the same as using the Axe power sims. So, Which Matrix do I get? Any suggestions? I am typically running into cabs that will handle a max of 100w. These SS amps have huge power ratings. I don't want to blow up my speakers. What is the smart way to go SS?

Thank You!
 
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