Tape Echo and Analog Deluxe Memory Man delays?

Bob G

Bob G

Member
I've been an Axe-Fx user for a couple years now.

I can't seem to get a realistic sounding tape echo effect from this product which surprises me considering everything else it can do.

You know....those repeats that get more and more diffused and start to smear and sound more and more grungy on each repeat as well as modulate with the wow and flutter craziness of tape running through old capstans and pinch rollers. Line 6 actually got a really awesome simulation of that in the Echo Park pedal which is what I am using now for this sound. Sure would be nice if the Axe-Fx had a better version of this sound that was just like the Echoplex tape echo machines of the past. Then I could lose the Echo Park pedal and gain some tone back too.

I am wondering if anyone has been able to program a tape echo that sounds like a convincing Echoplex yet? If you have please share the knowledge!

I am also wondering if there are any plans to create some emulations of tape echo models?

I think when you select the delay block, one of the options should be tape echo and another one should be analog echo. As well, there should be a couple different tape echo models that are emulated. The solid state Echoplex and the tube Echoplex as well as the Binson Echorec. These are classic. The Deluxe Memory Man by EH should be modelled as well.

It's amazing that Line 6 has had these models for years and Fractal has not yet come up with anything. These are very popular and essential guitar tools for many people.
 
http://axefxwiki.guitarlogic.org/index. ... Tape_delay

Analog delay - lower the hi cut filter (~4-8k), turn up drive parameter a bit, use modulation for a memory man type delay
'
To get a more profound tape echo sound see the "Inserting effects in a Delay loop" but you put a hipass filter w/ a freq ~4k or so in the loop. I'll try and post an example here in the next couple of days.

It is important to remember that ,other than the drive pedals and amps, the axe-fx does not model other effects but gives you the parameters to sculpt you own effects. That being said, I wish there was an easier way of doing the "Inserting effects in a Delay loop" thing especially for the extreme tape delay type effect.
 
Thanks for your help.

I am not new to programming and have done all of the things mentioned in the "tape echo" portion of the wiki Axe-Fx delay tutorial section.

I've tried inserting the Tape Drive model in front of the delay block with filters set up for hi and low pass and then feebacking the delay through the tape drive block at the input of the delay block. Then I messed around for hours with the Modulation parameters and the different LFO's. I tweaked the speeds and depths and all the phase and other parameters.

It's a cool effect that you get but it still doesn't have the tone and vibe of the real deal.

Even the Line 6 Echo Park tape echo model is way closer to an Echoplex.

If specific amps and drive pedals are modelled in the Axe-Fx, which they are, then why not a simple tape echo unit?

Perhaps it's time for someone to send Cliff an Echoplex for his birthday.
 
Cliff has never seemed interested in doing that. He statements are a kin too, all the parameters are already there. The hi low filters to emulate tape freq bandwidth, wow and flutter are modulations, drive is actually a tape drive emulation. He also stated that other effect modelers use the exact same technique but label them the like wow and flutter instead of modulation. So what would he do different? All I can think of is a different waveform for wow and flutter.

I do like what you can do with the delay in a feedback loop.

Here is an example matman put up a while back:

http://www.mysticworks.com/tunes/duper_dub.mp3

I do know what you mean I can't get a clone of a memory man. Analog delayish yes, but memory man model know. That being said, line 6 models are not there either. Guitar rig 4 however just about nails it.
 
I was wondering about the Tape Echo myself.

My absolute favorite is the Roland Space Echo (original version, not the pedal). I was considering buying one of these from E-bay, but then I had heard tell of all the marvelous things the AxeFx was capable of.

I'd like to share a link of some fantastic tones...though I know youtube vids are low quality, I think you guys can get the drift of what I'm HOPING the Axe can do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13oQBgx7uUc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02Pd_qQl ... re=related

I just love that warmth and ambience!
 
It's sad that Fractal Audio would choose to ignore the need for tape echo and tube tape echo models specifically available in the delay block.

There is obviously a huge percentage of Axe-Fx users who would want these models and who would benefit from having them to add the characteristic texture and spacial interest to their music that Echoplex and other tape echo devices offer.

Having to reverse engineer the recipie and ingredients for a Tube Tape Echo unit model myself using what little I know about them from a design and construction perspective seems like way too much for a simple musician to have to figure out.
 
Bob G said:
It's sad that Fractal Audio would choose to ignore the need for tape echo and tube tape echo models specifically available in the delay block.

There is obviously a huge percentage of Axe-Fx users who would want these models and who would benefit from having them to add the characteristic texture and spacial interest to their music that Echoplex and other tape echo devices offer.

Having to reverse engineer the recipie and ingredients for a Tube Tape Echo unit model myself using what little I know about them from a design and construction perspective seems like way too much for a simple musician to have to figure out.
Click to expand...

The "need" is coming up regularly and voiced not by a "huge percentage of users" (not even of forum users), but by a small number of individuals. Some have also tried several times. :)

Nobody (at least not in the "me want" threads I have seen) has yet been able to explain what is special about these units apart from the common knowledge available.

There is no need to reverse engineer anything, look it up in the Wiki.
 
Nobody (at least not in the "me want" threads I have seen) has yet been able to explain what is special about these units apart from the common knowledge available.

I'm not sure what is "common knowledge" about original tape echoes, but here is what I think are special about them:

1. Warmth. These units have a warmth to them that I have never found in digital pedals/processors. Here's a goofy analogy: the difference (tonally) between a real tape echo and a processor is like a super soft micro-fiber blanket compared to one made of vinyl-- they both have a similar "shape", they both serve to cover something, but they have a completely different "effect" on the person who is covered by them. The soft blanket is warm, has "give", has an appealing texture....the vinyl blanket is cut-out to have an idealized blanket "shape", but has a stiff texture, no warmth, and is obviously synthetic.

2. Liveliness. With a real tape echo, there is an interaction with your tone, such that it adds dimension and the feeling of "breathiness" and space. Processed versions of tape echoes (to me,) seem like your tone is just being masked by something, and not that it is "expanding into something".

3. True low-fidelity. The decay of notes from a real tape echo are beautifully low-fi, warm, soupy, and imperfect...but they just sound natural. When a processor/pedal tries to emulate low-fidelity by simply making the repeats grainier, or darkening them, it just does not sound the same.


No need to flame my poor attempt at using mediocre analogies to describe the esoteric...but I was trying to explain as well as I could what is so special about these tape echoes.

YMMV and all that.

I was saving up for an AxeFx, but I have just started bidding on original RE-201 space echoes, after having finally experienced one for myself. Would I rather tweak parameters for months on the Axe, or have my holy grail delay/verb tones delivered instantly? Well, ideally, I'd like to own both an AxeFx AND an original Tape Echo. BUT, I can only afford to spend money on ONE of these gear purchases.

I look forward to the day when I can afford both, and see how the Axe fares!
 
I'll let you know about the tape echo sims real, vs line 6, vs guitar rig 4.

I just got a line on EP-3 (that is solid state not tube) that should be here in a few days.
 
javajunkie said:
I'll let you know about the tape echo sims real, vs line 6, vs guitar rig 4.

I just got a line on EP-3 (that is solid state not tube) that should be here in a few days.
Click to expand...

:D

I look forward to reading your thoughts on the comparisons.

FWIW, the guy that I used to use for my tech work was a huge gearhead with a massive vintage collection (and monster chops). Anyway, he was a big vintage delay nut as well. His favorite unit for playing live when he didn't want to bring a vintage unit or his Fulltone TTE was the TC Nova Delay. He talked me into trying one and I loved it and agreed that it did the vintage delay thing really well. I used it every gig for a long time. I haven't missed it since I started using the Axe-FX though.

In the end, I found that for most of the stuff I do I prefer modulated delays in the style of the TC 2290 which the Axe has no problem emulating. I'm glad I don't have to mess with all the extra stuff like s/r blocks and feedback loop effects to get the delay sounds I want. That would get pretty frustrating really quickly.

I've got an M13 that I want to mess with some more on the delay front and see if there's something I'm missing in the vein of analog delay sounds, but I've been pretty happy for a long time now with my delay settings in the Axe-FX.

D
 
dk_ace said:
javajunkie said:
I'll let you know about the tape echo sims real, vs line 6, vs guitar rig 4.

I just got a line on EP-3 (that is solid state not tube) that should be here in a few days.
Click to expand...

:D

I look forward to reading your thoughts on the comparisons.

FWIW, the guy that I used to use for my tech work was a huge gearhead with a massive vintage collection (and monster chops). Anyway, he was a big vintage delay nut as well. His favorite unit for playing live when he didn't want to bring a vintage unit or his Fulltone TTE was the TC Nova Delay. He talked me into trying one and I loved it and agreed that it did the vintage delay thing really well. I used it every gig for a long time. I haven't missed it since I started using the Axe-FX though.

In the end, I found that for most of the stuff I do I prefer modulated delays in the style of the TC 2290 which the Axe has no problem emulating. I'm glad I don't have to mess with all the extra stuff like s/r blocks and feedback loop effects to get the delay sounds I want. That would get pretty frustrating really quickly.

I've got an M13 that I want to mess with some more on the delay front and see if there's something I'm missing in the vein of analog delay sounds, but I've been pretty happy for a long time now with my delay settings in the Axe-FX.

D
Click to expand...

I have an m13. I had it in the rack for a little while but pulled it because I liked most everything on the Axe-fx better (save a few drive models and the lo-res delay).
 
javajunkie said:
I have an m13. I had it in the rack for a little while but pulled it because I liked most everything on the Axe-fx better (save a few drive models and the lo-res delay).
Click to expand...

I love it for the crazy stuff like the seek-trem, seek-wah, octo and particle verb, synths, weird mods and filters, etc. I can get a lot of that on the Axe-FX but I rarely neet it or use it, so I hate to spend lots of time dialing that stuff in. I like the ability to get really far out stuff quickly and easily on the M13. Throw in the looper, and it becomes a really fun pedal for me to have around.

Out of curiosity, which drive models do you like in it? I was originally using it for my normal drive sounds in front of the Axe-FX, but I found I prefer the Axe-FX drives for normal stuff.

It's also handy for trying out sounds like weird analog delays. If I fall in love with something like that and will use it frequently I can always dial it in and expound on it in the Axe-FX. It's much easier to experiment with that stuff on the M13 though for me. I have very little tweaking time these days, so the M13 really helps me when I want to experiment and don't have deep editing time.

D
 
dk_ace said:
javajunkie said:
I have an m13. I had it in the rack for a little while but pulled it because I liked most everything on the Axe-fx better (save a few drive models and the lo-res delay).
Click to expand...

I love it for the crazy stuff like the seek-trem, seek-wah, octo and particle verb, synths, weird mods and filters, etc. I can get a lot of that on the Axe-FX but I rarely neet it or use it, so I hate to spend lots of time dialing that stuff in. I like the ability to get really far out stuff quickly and easily on the M13. Throw in the looper, and it becomes a really fun pedal for me to have around.

Out of curiosity, which drive models do you like in it? I was originally using it for my normal drive sounds in front of the Axe-FX, but I found I prefer the Axe-FX drives for normal stuff.

It's also handy for trying out sounds like weird analog delays. If I fall in love with something like that and will use it frequently I can always dial it in and expound on it in the Axe-FX. It's much easier to experiment with that stuff on the M13 though for me. I have very little tweaking time these days, so the M13 really helps me when I want to experiment and don't have deep editing time.

D
Click to expand...

I like the facial fuzz and the colordrive. I too prefer the axe-fx for most drive pedals.
It is very nice for quickly dialing things in. I also like the barberpole phaser which cannot be done on the axe-fx at this time.
It might still be in my rack if the thing didn't weight so darn much!
 
I got the EP-3 in yesterday. After a tone of clean up and lubrication it is working okay. It probably could use a new belt and be quieted down some. It was supposed to come with a new tape as well as an old one. Old one was completely shot. New one was not really new but has had some use. Still in decent shape.

I reamped a track and compared the ep3, axe-fx w/ delay (send/return w/ peq in loop), native instruments GR4 tape delay, Line 6 M13 tube echo delay (the only tape one w/ wow and flutter), and eventide eclipse tape delay (time factor algorithm). I'll post the clips later. The EP-3 will be easy to pick out I think. The added noise and slight glitches gives it away ( a belt and tape replacement plus some more restoration will probably fix that).

That being said, all the delays were close. The Axe-fx did a fine job emulating the tape. As did all of them. The line 6 was probably at the bottom for me just because it seemed to overplay the tape effect (regardless if I used tape or tube delay). However, I think others may really like it because of that. The eventide was nice to program with wow, flutter, and noise controls built in plus the hold function. The Eventide had its signature on the delay (which is really sweet but does color things differently than the EP-3). M13 was bonehead simple to program and the fastest to dial in and a good sound. The Axe-fx takes the longest to tweak and required more advanced programming but sounded very good. The GR4 tape delay was the best to me in terms of sound, accuracy, ease of use, and tweakabilty. You could just use the simple controls (time, feedback, echo volume, bass/treble) to more advanced things like tape bias, tape treble/bass, dropouts, noise, variac, headroom, motor acceleration, warble, sync, head mix (ratio of mix between head A/B), plus stereo and a built in spring reverb. Most of these things can be emulated on the Axe-fx but it would be a lot of work and routing.

After this test, I will probably just use the Eclipse for a tape delay. It is already in my rack, sounds really good, is simple to program, and frees up some resources on the Axe-fx. For post recording tape delay I would most likely use guitar rig 4.
 
I was just thinking about this yesterday and wondering when you would get your Echoplex in to do the comparison.

I'm really surprised to hear that GR4 has all that programming functionality built into it. I have helped guys using GR3, and I wasn't that impressed really.

I would have to agree that L6 overplays the tape thing to my ears. I haven't done an A/B test like this, but I thought it was a little over-the-top. As an effect, I know a lot of guys that like that though. I think a lot of players like the Echo Park for the EP emulation as it has a different algorithm than the M series or the DL4. I've heard it's incredibly close to the real deal, but I haven't compared them myself. I've seen several players leave them sitting on top of their amps always on (the first player I saw do that doesn't even like pedals). I remember a little griping that that sound didn't make it into the M13 when they came out.

It's good to hear that the Axe-FX can get that sound, but if it's that much trouble I think I'll pass. I don't want to tie up a lot of resources to get that sound, and I'm pretty happy with the delay sounds I get already. I would use it if you could get it within the delay block, but I'm not interested in a bunch of extra routing and work to get it.

D
 
dk_ace said:
I was just thinking about this yesterday and wondering when you would get your Echoplex in to do the comparison.

I'm really surprised to hear that GR4 has all that programming functionality built into it. I have helped guys using GR3, and I wasn't that impressed really.

I would have to agree that L6 overplays the tape thing to my ears. I haven't done an A/B test like this, but I thought it was a little over-the-top. As an effect, I know a lot of guys that like that though. I think a lot of players like the Echo Park for the EP emulation as it has a different algorithm than the M series or the DL4. I've heard it's incredibly close to the real deal, but I haven't compared them myself. I've seen several players leave them sitting on top of their amps always on (the first player I saw do that doesn't even like pedals). I remember a little griping that that sound didn't make it into the M13 when they came out.

It's good to hear that the Axe-FX can get that sound, but if it's that much trouble I think I'll pass. I don't want to tie up a lot of resources to get that sound, and I'm pretty happy with the delay sounds I get already. I would use it if you could get it within the delay block, but I'm not interested in a bunch of extra routing and work to get it.

D
Click to expand...

They improved the time and pitch algorithms in GR4. The memory man emulation is the closest out of anything I have tried.
 
Here is a quick recording of some tape delay type sounds. I just grabbed a reamp track off of guitar rig and applied them to each. They are all before a amp-cab-light verb in the axe-fx. The delays represented (not necessarily in this order) are:

Echoplex EP-3
Axe-fx
Eventide Eclipse Tape Delay
Line 6 M13 tube delay
Guitar Rig 4 Tape delay

The Echoplex should be pretty easy to hear for a variety of reasons.
the guitar rig 4 one in this example is not as good as it could be. I have been able to get it a lot better by using the advanced parameters, but I didn't have time to rerecord things.

http://javajunkiemusic.com/Audio/tapedelays.mp3
 
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