Synth/keys/organ/horns/string - what is possible live? What isn't?

Tplesko

Tplesko

Inspired
Hi all, I have struggled with this since the AxeII, then the AX8, and now again with the AxeIII - what can be done for synth, strings, organ and keys types sounds - sounds you might need a keys player to emulate - and what is not achievable. It remains unclear to me.

For instance, some simple synth pad and even some deep octave pop synth seems readily achievable and I've played some - @simeon helped me with a patch for 'Hella Good' a while back and it was excellent. Most recently, I have asked about the sequenced synth in 'Hungry Like the Wolf' and Simeon and @Admin M@ (maybe even Cliff?) helped and it ended in a great result - I will post that one here for sharing. It's really quite great if you're in a 1-guitar band with no keys (both of my cover bands are this way and both want to often play songs that have some synth or keys or horns in it).

Here is my request as it eludes me - what is realistically achievable with the AxeIII and what requires another piece of gear like the Roland GR55 + GK3 pickup? I have tried those and am trying desperately to keep my rig simple....if anyone has good feedback or a list, please share. Others may have similar questions. I don't need synth or strings or horns every patch, but now and then I do and would LOVE to keep it within the Axe.

I've become decent at creating patches that emulate the original recording for cover bands, but I stink at anything outside of a clean or gain tone which is why I am researching. Thanks in advance!

PS - the attached patch is super cool live....credit to Simeon and Admin!!!! Scene 1= Verses. Scene 2 = Chorus (play single notes, low).
 

Attachments

  • Arpeggiate Like the Wolf_20180921_115822.syx
    48.2 KB · Views: 63
The III essentially has the same abilities, and/or limitations as the 2 did really. You can make some unique sounds, and can do things that can sound kind of like a horn or strings, and create some cool pad type sounds, but its a guitar amp modeler and effects processor, and while it can do some basic subtractive synth sounds, pitch effects etc, its lacking a proper synth engine.

There isn't any absolute answer to what is "good enough" and what isn't. For many, it can make all the zany synth sounds they could ever want. For someone else like myself, who's been into keys and synths for nearly as long as I've been a guitar player, it comes up very short for the type of sound design I like, with programs like NI Reaktor, or the Behringer Moog Model D clone etc. However, the Axe works great WITH those for effects and that is how I personally use mine these days, not really trying to make the III do things I don't personally think its great at, but using it for things it is great at.

As I said though, there isn't really one correct answer, because everyone is going to have different opinions on what "works" and what falls short.

Its like emulating a bass guitar. You can get a pretty good bass sound with pitch shifting, either in the Axe or hardware pedals, but does it replace having a bass player ? Depends..... Some pretty successful bands have done just that, so yes it works, but at the same time, you can buy a cheap bass, and boom, you've got this really authentic bass sound, because your playing a bass lol.

I'd see how you feel the III can fare, and I'd also suggest trying some synths, maybe even some iOS apps.. I love Animoog myself. Press a virtual key and you can get some crazy evolving sequences with tons of filtering and modulation etc. Run in through your III maybe.

I'm typically of the opinion that the more music making tools you have, the better. So I've got synths, drum machines, keyboards, basses, guitars etc. I don't play most of them very well, but its fun and creative. At the same time, sometimes its okay to have a guitar sound like a guitar...

I was all about the EHX B9 and C9 pedals, but the tracking and playing dynamics, chording etc were tricky. I found that just playing guitar chords with some rotary sounded "fine". Having an "authentic" B3 sound didn't really impress anyone or add anything to the track, so I ditched a lot of pedals

So I guess long post short, "maybe" and "try it and see"
 
I got rid of a lot of pedals when I got the AxeIII (sold about 20 of them to finance it!) but the one I hung onto was the electroharmonix C9 which I use for a lot of Doors and Zeppelin songs. Also has a great Lesley tone. I haven't figured out how to do in the Axe but I agree with Iddsnddist - maybe you shouldn't try to make the Axe do everything, you can still have outboard gear in your setup which is exactly what I do.
 
try and do some research into the different types of synthesis and what they're good for. the axe is basically a Moog, or similar analog synth. it can generate some simple waveforms (sin, tri, square, saw etc) and that's it. you won't create a convincing saxophone sound, but with good use of filtering, effects and mixing different waveforms together, you can create a nice palette of analog patches.
nothing will sound wholly "realistic", because real world instruments don't produce simple waveforms and have complicated attack characteristics that are crucial to replicate if you want a convincing sound.
 
I wrote the following description of the Axe-Fx synth in the manual. I think it holds true:

"3-oscillator, monophonic, virtual analog synth"
 
I use the Axe-Fx/AX8 synth for things when I can and you can do a lot with it if you can find the right spots to drop it in - see below for the "Cars" video I made last year.

For the things that go beyond the Axe-Fx/AX8 synth capabilities, I've started using the Orange OMEC Teleport which is basically a sound card in pedal format. It ties into a laptop via USB and from there I can use the MIDI Guitar app to translate the audio to MIDI and trigger synths in Mainstage. I return that back to my AX8 in the FX loop so everything comes out of one place to the board. I turn on/off the FX loop via AX8 scenes and send patch changes to Mainstage when the preset changes on the AX8. It's been pretty flexible. I use it for more complex synth sounds, horns, etc. I have also set it up to trigger samples based on the notes you play (which gets fun).

 
66ED595B-2820-474B-902D-207FA667FFA6.jpeg I haven't even tried the synth built into the axefx yet but part of the reason I bought it in the first place was to be able to blend synths into GUITARS with effects, which is amazing so far! Will get some audio /video soon...

I use the Fishman triple play (midi pickup) to trigger the synths which send audio into the axefx. I use a thing called a Bomebox to go from USB-MIDI to DIN MIDI.
 
Just wondering aloud here ....
  • Currently the Axe Fx III has a fair amount of CPU available ...
  • the Hardware is a high quality , real time audio platform ....
I wonder if software based synthesis that does not require Gigs of storage (thinking FM , additive synthesis, granular(?) would be feasible on the Axe FX III ?

As I type this it dawns on me that the current synth capabilities are monophonic .... I wonder what it would take to go polyphonic ???
 
JacobiusWrex said:
View attachment 50040 I haven't even tried the synth built into the axefx yet but part of the reason I bought it in the first place was to be able to blend synths into GUITARS with effects, which is amazing so far! Will get some audio /video soon...

I use the Fishman triple play (midi pickup) to trigger the synths which send audio into the axefx. I use a thing called a Bomebox to go from USB-MIDI to DIN MIDI.
Click to expand...

Sick setup! Your stuff on bandcamp is cool too. Let's see that video you mentioned!

[10]
 
I don't see why it could not go polyphonic with a current hardware. If Pitch block can track chords, why synth block can not?
 
pauliusmm said:
I don't see why it could not go polyphonic with a current hardware. If Pitch block can track chords, why synth block can not?
Click to expand...

Probably it could, but, because 99.9% of buyers bought it for guitar processing (or bass), and likely that 99.9% of synth users already have synths, be they analog, virtual analog, software based vst, there would be next to no demand to really sink time and money into developing the synth engine. Not much market for a $2500 virtual analog synth that happens to do guitar amp modeling, right ?

So then you’ve just got guitar players that also want a synth, and that don’t already have a bunch of synths, and of course without a keyboard your just doing pitch tracking, and that is fun for guitar, but most people more serious about synth or keys will want keys, or at least a midi controller keuboard, but then that adds costs, and how many guitar players will want to use the synth in their guitar processor enough to buy a keyboard for it? Could go on and on....

Personally, for synths I highly recommend the NI Komplete software and Komplete Kontrol keyboard. You’ve got essentially any synth or sample sound you could want, great keys and knobs and screens, and the whole collection of thousands of sounds is all browsable etc. just a fantastic way to find the sounds you want, and with chord mode, scales, light guides etc in the keyboard even those without piano skills can lay down some nice chords, arpeggios etc.Just a great mix of hardware and software.
 
I use a GR55 for all my synth sounds. Horns, 80s key sounds as well as acoustic guitar modeling. You'll get some good-ish synth stuff on its own with the axe; but I found that it doesn't seem to hold up as well in a band mix for that stuff. Nor does really anybody Beyond a few people care that it gets developed further. And I get that.

You can get some cool textures and killer pads with the Axe; but nothing polyphonic or realistic instrument approximation on even a casio level. Fwiw; the Roland stuff is dated as heck sounding but it works for what I do.
 
lqdsnddist said:
Probably it could, but, because 99.9% of buyers bought it for guitar processing (or bass), and likely that 99.9% of synth users already have synths, be they analog, virtual analog, software based vst, there would be next to no demand to really sink time and money into developing the synth engine. Not much market for a $2500 virtual analog synth that happens to do guitar amp modeling, right ?

So then you’ve just got guitar players that also want a synth, and that don’t already have a bunch of synths, and of course without a keyboard your just doing pitch tracking, and that is fun for guitar, but most people more serious about synth or keys will want keys, or at least a midi controller keuboard, but then that adds costs, and how many guitar players will want to use the synth in their guitar processor enough to buy a keyboard for it? Could go on and on....

Personally, for synths I highly recommend the NI Komplete software and Komplete Kontrol keyboard. You’ve got essentially any synth or sample sound you could want, great keys and knobs and screens, and the whole collection of thousands of sounds is all browsable etc. just a fantastic way to find the sounds you want, and with chord mode, scales, light guides etc in the keyboard even those without piano skills can lay down some nice chords, arpeggios etc.Just a great mix of hardware and software.
Click to expand...

I hope you don't have the right to vote at the Fractal Audio's Board of Investors for Product Development ;)

The Axe-FX has many features that will never be used by the majority of guitar players. But they give it added value, and some of us are in love with them.

BTW: these synths you mention are just synths triggered by MIDI notes, not guitar-modeling synths (e.g: Roland VG99)

With the current level of programming technology, that could be achieved without the need of a hex-pickup (pitch detection technology like in the new Jam Origin MIDI Guitar software or the Axe-FX Pitch Block)
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=VG99+synth
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom