Struggling with dynamic and punchy cleans

Just an observation from band rehearsal last night (using multiple XL clean presets direct into a Dynacord P5 PA) that might helps someone.

I handed the guitar (PRS custom 22, Ernie Ball 09's) over to our bass player afterwards for his opinion on all of this. Wow. If you use a light plectrum & play with a very light touch like he does, chances are every style and note you play through AFX presets will sound great with little or no tweaking. Perceived tonal issues only started when I was handed back the guitar & introduced my usual herdim blue plectrum and heavy-handed playing style. We both heard a difference and agreed that I def should try some of the additional advanced sag / compression / cab EQ / etc, tips outlined here. I can't rem how much plectrum size & playing style affects the AFX tone compared with a real amp, probably not much if at all, but I intend exploring that over the weekend. If nothing else it will help me understand what it is I am trying to achieve with those advanced parameters.

Anyhoo, while this is anything but a scientific post, I'd not considered this aspect of tone much before and figured it worth mentioning. I realise it may be of no help or relevance to the OP.
It does however highlight once again that we all play differently with different tools, and what works for one will not necessarily work or make sense for everybody.
I'm just glad I abandoned those 11's strings years ago...! :nightmare:
 
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ibanezfreak4 said:
Albert Einstein - Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein at BrainyQuote

Great solutions Chris.
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Most of the myths and quotes of and about Einstein are false, like him being a bad student or this quote above. One can't deny the underlying irony in a quote about doing the same thing over and over again being falsely quoted over and over again.
 
Eanna said:
Just an observation from band rehearsal last night (using multiple XL clean presets direct into a Dynacord P5 PA) that might helps someone.

I handed the guitar (PRS custom 22, Ernie Ball 09's) over to our bass player afterwards for his opinion on all of this. Wow. If you use a light plectrum & play with a very light touch like he does, chances are every style and note you play through AFX presets will sound great with little or no tweaking. Perceived tonal issues only started when I was handed back the guitar & introduced my usual herdim blue plectrum and heavy-handed playing style. We both heard a difference and agreed that I def should try some of the additional advanced sag / compression / cab EQ / etc, tips outlined here. I can't rem how much plectrum size & playing style affects the AFX tone compared with a real amp, probably not much if at all, but I intend exploring that over the weekend. If nothing else it will help me understand what it is I am trying to achieve with those advanced parameters.

Anyhoo, while this is anything but a scientific post, I'd not considered this aspect of tone much before and figured it worth mentioning. I realise it may be of no help or relevance to the OP.
It does however highlight once again that we all play differently with different tools, and what works for one will not necessarily work or make sense for everybody.
I'm just glad I abandoned those 11's strings years ago...! :nightmare:
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This happened to me when my brother came for a visit.

He was in my home studio playing guitar and the tone was killer. I rushed in there only to find he was playing my guitar and my rig :) I had just set it down. But it sounded so much better when he played it.

I think it's being more objective about the tone when you are a listener only, vs. playing and listening. My brain works differently when I'm playing and my perception of the sound is different. When I'm just listening, I'm more objective about the sound.
 
barhrecords said:
My brain works differently when I'm playing and my perception of the sound is different. When I'm just listening, I'm more objective about the sound.
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When you are playing you know what you are doing to obtain that sound, and you feel what is the result. When you are listening to a player, you don't know what he is doing (pick position, strenght, speed of movement, and so on). Let's take another point of view. I love the way a Hotrod sound, but I can't stand playing it. The attack has no... thump/punch :) I love to play Bassman, but the sound is not as pleasant as Hotrod. If one ask me "what amp do you prefer to play, what is the best?" Bassman, I prefer feel versus sound. Maybe other player will love hotrod attack, and feel not at ease with a Bassman. Both Bassman & Hotrod allow "clean" tone. I wonder, if we make a poll, which one will be considered the punchier...
 
Many thanks to the OP and to the forum members for this thread that should almost be stickied. I've never read so many good advices in one place.
 
I think our subjective perception of stuff we hear others play, see others paint, et al., is quite often different than how we perceive our own efforts.

With photography for example, I can go spend a day shooting photos and come back with stuff that I like, yet when I see another person share images online taken at the same place, I'm always struck with "why didn't I think to do that" moments.

Same often goes for guitar tones, I can love a certain artist tone, and sometimes even have been lucky enough to get to play their rigs after sound checks and such, and the tones the tech was getting just 5 minutes ago always seemed so awesome, but then when I'm playing, and really thinking about the tone, it doesn't match up.

I think there is always a higher level of criticism for our own playing, our own tone, our own painting skills etc, than those first impressions of others.

Look at others photography longer and usually it loses a bit of luster, just as many other plays tones that at first hearing were amazing, suddenly start to sound a little more thin, harsh et al.,

Perhaps it comes down to newness above all else....

I know that usually the first time I listen to a CD I love it, but then after hearing it a few times, only a few tracks stand out (save for a fantastic album)

First time I make a new meal it taste great. Cook it again a week later and while good, its not amazing

All and all, I think its just a bit of how subjective opinion works in the typical earthbound human male...
 
i think a lot of this comes down to the "tone is in the hands" conversation. so much of the way we play, pick angle, attack...our touch on the strings and fretboard...the way we apply vibrato, slides, subtle bends, etc....that's why a rig can sound totally different in someone else's hands, and why we can sound like ourselves not matter the gear.

i truly feel like the "punchy/dynamic" tones, and I've said this like 3 times already, come from having an amp set up to have light break up at full volume/attack and using your playing to control dynamics. that is easily attained with just about any amp in the Axe.
 
RoshRoslin said:
Carr Roamer set to break up on humbuckers. Then I rolled back the volume knob of my guitar and used a split coil sound. I was basing it off the tone of that Morgan Video with Josh playing guitar. I'm not as good at that cat, but that tone is so easy to spot. An amp that's breaking up with the volume rolled back on a single coil guitar. He switched to the bridge pickup toward the end.

Honestly I didn't feel like getting my strat out of the case in my studio and I was already practicing on my Suhr so I just got the iPhone out and banged out a quick clip.
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So...All axe through FRFR or were you using an actual amp?
 
don_joe said:
Many thanks to the OP and to the forum members for this thread that should almost be stickied. I've never read so many good advices in one place.
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Yes! I was almost a bit intimidated to say the exact thing, but once you sift through all of the emotional responses there are a ton of great practical real world tips from the man himself and users that have taken a moment to try and help someone find a "feel" as much as a tone. This thread has inspired me to play with a few parameters that I haven't much and opened another door in this vast AXE FX universe. As a very NON power user myself sometimes these tips that may be obvious to others really shed some light on quickly and effectively dialing in different aspects of what this box can do.

I hope the OP finds what he is looking for. I've found some things I wasn't looking for but now can't live without! :)
 
I'm actually kind of glad I don't have any real amps anymore (though I do miss and sometimes question my selling some rare old classics like my 65 BF Bassman and Princeton Reverb...got good money for them at least).

Why ? Because now my tone is my tone 100% of the time using the Axe-Fx. If I play a gig, I just plug into the board and the FOH and wedge tone is my usual tone. Want to throw a track into some DAW software ? My tone on "tape" is the same as my live tone, which is the same as the tone I get sitting and crafting patches, practicing etc.

It always translates very well.

I remember in my teens trying to stick a mic in front of my JCM800 and 4x12. My SM57 and Tascam recordings sure didn't sound anything like that 4x12 as I was used to hearing it in the basement/garage. Just as an aside but wonder how many here even remember using like 4 track cassette recorders and thinking it was this amazing technology lol. Anyways, learning a recorded guitar and the amp in the room where two different things was a real eye-opener. Made me then always wonder how tones I was dialing in rehearsing would transfer live and recorded.

I think remember working with some producers in studios that made to do a total 180 from what I was used to as they would have the cabs mic'd in a different room (and darn loud!) while I monitored the recorded sound. Very different than playing with the amp 5 feet behind me, but of course logically makes sense. Again though, was this aspect of "hey my guitar sounds different" which when your paying for studio time is kind of pricey to waste time adapting to.

Then there was the issue that plagued pretty much everyone after you had some good recorded tones...how to make them translate to doing a live gig. Spent all that time getting the mics right and this tone I'm happy with and then you go and try to dial it in at the gig and it sounds different again. No more ribbon mic etc, just a SM57 on the cone as its all the venue provides etc. Even when I'd get it dialed in one night, on a different stage I would feel like I couldn't nail it.

Long story short, I felt like I was always chasing this inconsistent tone. Sometimes it was good, sometimes it was off, and other times it just sounded different.

Now don't get me wrong, even with the Axe sometimes I think my tones are awesome, and inspire me to play for hours, and other days I'm like " this is crap, I need a different amp model" lol, but realistically I know the tone hasn't changed, just my mood etc. Overall though, I know that a tone I dial in is going to sound the same (more or less given intensity levels, perceived loudness etc of course) to people listing to my music in the audience, as its going to sound to people listening to a track, as its going to sound to me when I'm practicing etc.

I think this is a really fantastic "feature" of the Axe, and one that makes sense to embrace, rather than try to fight against. An added plus for me at least, is that I've been able to ditch the speaker cabs, microphones, position markers for mics etc too. So much less gear to haul around, faster setup/teardown etc.

I can basically walk in with just my rack case, plug into the board, take a couple minutes getting my monitor mix right (or using my powered wedge) and be good to play. This is frankly huge. I used to have to make several trips to the car just to get everything loaded in, and then spend a half hour hooking everything up, dialing in the mic position, having issues with venues saying the cab was too loud on stage, which then required me to retweak, etc etc.

In summary, technology is pretty cool. I can now spend more time playing my guitar, not being a roadie/engineer/guitar tech etc
 
FractalAudio said:
I doubt it. Use a solid-state power amp and plug the Engl speakers into that then you'll have a real test. Until then it's just speculation and uncontrolled tests.
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Great suggestion! I'll give that a try and post my results. I have a GT1000FX and a Roland JC120 that I can experiment with.
 
lqdsnddist said:
I'm actually kind of glad I don't have any real amps anymore (though I do miss and sometimes question my selling some rare old classics like my 65 BF Bassman and Princeton Reverb...got good money for them at least).

Why ? Because now my tone is my tone 100% of the time using the Axe-Fx. If I play a gig, I just plug into the board and the FOH and wedge tone is my usual tone. Want to throw a track into some DAW software ? My tone on "tape" is the same as my live tone, which is the same as the tone I get sitting and crafting patches, practicing etc.

It always translates very well.

I remember in my teens trying to stick a mic in front of my JCM800 and 4x12. My SM57 and Tascam recordings sure didn't sound anything like that 4x12 as I was used to hearing it in the basement/garage. Just as an aside but wonder how many here even remember using like 4 track cassette recorders and thinking it was this amazing technology lol. Anyways, learning a recorded guitar and the amp in the room where two different things was a real eye-opener. Made me then always wonder how tones I was dialing in rehearsing would transfer live and recorded.

I think remember working with some producers in studios that made to do a total 180 from what I was used to as they would have the cabs mic'd in a different room (and darn loud!) while I monitored the recorded sound. Very different than playing with the amp 5 feet behind me, but of course logically makes sense. Again though, was this aspect of "hey my guitar sounds different" which when your paying for studio time is kind of pricey to waste time adapting to.

Then there was the issue that plagued pretty much everyone after you had some good recorded tones...how to make them translate to doing a live gig. Spent all that time getting the mics right and this tone I'm happy with and then you go and try to dial it in at the gig and it sounds different again. No more ribbon mic etc, just a SM57 on the cone as its all the venue provides etc. Even when I'd get it dialed in one night, on a different stage I would feel like I couldn't nail it.

Long story short, I felt like I was always chasing this inconsistent tone. Sometimes it was good, sometimes it was off, and other times it just sounded different.

Now don't get me wrong, even with the Axe sometimes I think my tones are awesome, and inspire me to play for hours, and other days I'm like " this is crap, I need a different amp model" lol, but realistically I know the tone hasn't changed, just my mood etc. Overall though, I know that a tone I dial in is going to sound the same (more or less given intensity levels, perceived loudness etc of course) to people listing to my music in the audience, as its going to sound to people listening to a track, as its going to sound to me when I'm practicing etc.

I think this is a really fantastic "feature" of the Axe, and one that makes sense to embrace, rather than try to fight against. An added plus for me at least, is that I've been able to ditch the speaker cabs, microphones, position markers for mics etc too. So much less gear to haul around, faster setup/teardown etc.

I can basically walk in with just my rack case, plug into the board, take a couple minutes getting my monitor mix right (or using my powered wedge) and be good to play. This is frankly huge. I used to have to make several trips to the car just to get everything loaded in, and then spend a half hour hooking everything up, dialing in the mic position, having issues with venues saying the cab was too loud on stage, which then required me to retweak, etc etc.

In summary, technology is pretty cool. I can now spend more time playing my guitar, not being a roadie/engineer/guitar tech etc
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Amen.

I remember all those moments too. Having FOH guys mic my 4x12 and getting inconsistent tone gig to gig. Sometimes they'd send the signal pre-fader to the wedge, sometimes post fader. Then I started taping the "sweet spot" on my cab and still, no consistency (Volume does play into it). Mixing and FOH 'engineers' screwing up my tone left and right.

Then touring with a dedicated FOH/Monitor guy, and by then I was on a legit tour with IEM and STILL no consistency, even to the point of gaffing my knobs on my pedalboard, amplifier and any knob that could turn. Running attenuators, line level iso boxes, WDW. It drove me bananas, but I also ended up conceding that it was "all part of the game" and any good sideman should be able to adapt. Obviously, rooms and venues change but damn that drove me crazy.

Along comes the axe fx, and there's still some mild deviation (5-10%) per gig but nothing like the wild variations I had during those wild-west tube amp microphone days. Again, live is anything BUT a sterile studio environment. Now the axe is just plug and play. soundchecks are 10 minutes long tops. I don't move microphones or twist knobs or bring auralex to seat my cab, or baffles to deflect the sound or compensate for mic bleed, use cab grabbers so i can get more proximity (aka bass) in my mic'ed tone.

Never again. Long live the axe fx :)
 
Morphosis said:
This discussion seems to be full of subjective perceptions and descriptions (thump, pressure, compression vs. "open" dynamic sound, etc.), also many Apple to Oranges comparisons (Kemper Profile vs. Axe-Fx Preset -> different frequency responses; FRFR vs. guitar cabinet, etc.).

Cliff mentioned some suggestion to get into more objective territory (TMA the Kemper) and this is a way to get obejctive comparisons...

That said, i was very sceptical and had many issues for myself in these categories in the past, but always tried to figure it out, where it comes from by doing extensive A/B comparisons with many different rigs / signal chains. Just refering to this thread, as example... where i learned something about frequency response and the speaker page, also with the help from Cliff, he kindly chimed in... and this was on FW13, if i remember right....





In the thread i mentioned above i had the same impression, my Koch`s Tube Amp gives me a "3D" and "thump", "compression" i could`nt get out of the Axe-Fx Amp Sim respectively a SS Amp, connected to the same (!) guitar cabinet. At the end of the day it WAS in fact 1) a frequency issue. After a TMA (clone the Koch into the Axe-Fx) & dialing in the "impedance curve" speaker page correctly to the actual cabinet, the sound and pressure of the Axe-Fx was as good, as with the real Tube Amp. The "3D" sound (impression, that the sound did not gluing at the speakers membrane,when playing through the Axe-Fx) was gone, after FW14... if i remember correct.

I also had a Kemper for three weeks for a test and i compare both machines extensiveley. And yes - oftenly i had the impression, that the pressure and feel the Kemper do was on some more cleanish profiles better than with the Axe-Fx. But could NOT verify this "first" impression, after re-adjusting and tweak some Axe-Fx Presets. The Axe-Fx can do it ALL! And in the meanwhile better with more in-deep control of certain parameters.

We did at the Axe-Fest 2014 a fair comparison between the Axe-Fx+SS State power amp (Matrix GT1000) and a damn good Plexi derivate, both fairly connected to the identical speaker cabinet (Diezel 212, Celestion G12K100 loaded).

Note the Axe-Fx Input LEDs from minute 2.00 on ...
OFF = guitar -> Lehle A/B switch -> Reußenzehn Plexi Tube Amp -> Diezel cabinet Speaker 1
ON = guitar -> Lehle A/B switch -> Axe-Fx Plexi100W High -> Matrix GT1000 -> Diezel cabinet Speaker 2


The Axe-Fx was SPOT on! With a solid state amp and a Sim, we just tweak nothing, but Presence to ten! So: No tonematch, no exorbitant tweaking!

You may say now: Yes, but this is not a cleanish sound, i can`t find the "compression" punch and chimey "3D" i am looking for ... I did at the Axe fest exactly the same experiment set-up also with a actual 70ies Fender Super Reverb (stunning clean sound!!!!!), connection the Matrix to the speaker (4x P10R) of that combo and again the same with a Vox Ac30 blonde, loaded with Bloedogs. The owners of those Amps were stunning, how close the Axe-Fx was! Especially for those "3D", Punsh, compression, Amp-in-the room experience, blah blah ....

The Axe-Fx IS superior for what it does and it is designed for! This is ... and this is my personal opinion - a fact. Persiod. A fact, based on comparisons like these ...
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Great video!
Obviously the AFII exactly clones another amp (a few minor deviations here and there, but one would be hard-pressed to notice these differences on tomorrow's playback of a recorded track).

Thanks for posting - I think I found my doppleganger. :D
 
Zwiebelchen said:
I've found the Kemper to be more bassy than the Axe at most default settings (and also add some hidden compression, but that might be my imagination running wild).
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You're not alone my friend. This is in fact THE Kemper trick, post-amp compression on a specific range of frequencies (mostly mids). Quite noticeable when you go from one to the other, tonematch Kemper profiles, and profile KPA presets, which I've did extensively. This tip makes the KPA generally spongier than the Axe

FractalAudio said:
I don't artificially exaggerate the compression for the purposes of selling gear. I leave it to the user to add compression, if desired.
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This.
however, the way the post-amp compression is implemented in the KPA is nice. Works better for cleans and low/mid gain than for heavier riffing though

I'll have a go at tonematching that profile too, and adding some post-amp compression
 
fremen said:
This is in fact THE trick, post-amp compression on a specific range of frequencies (mostly mids).... Works better for cleans and low/mid gain... I'll have a go at tonematching that profile too, and adding some post-amp compression
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OK this post has just given me so much hope. Thank you.
Sounds like we already have the tools to achieve this too... if we just knew how to use them properly ?
Could you show some of us how to do this ? It would mean an awful lot. Thank you.
 
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Eanna said:
OK this post has just given me so much hope. Thank you.
Sounds like we already have the tools to achieve this too... if we just knew how to use them properly ?
Could you show some of us how to do this ? It would mean an awful lot. Thank you.
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Put an MBC block after the Cab block.

Set the level for the low and high band to zero.

Set the level for the middle band to 6db.
 
Eanna said:
OK this post has just given me so much hope. Thank you.
Sounds like we already have the tools to achieve this too... if we just knew how to use them properly ?
Could you show some of us how to do this ? It would mean an awful lot. Thank you.
Click to expand...
I've just loaded the TAF - 69 Amps Clean profile and honestly I don't like it at all so I won't tonematch it. But I've tonematched other TAF profiles in the past and I have the biggest respect for Andy in the KPA world, along with Michael Britt

However I did this short video, displaying the sound of the "TAF - 69 Amps Clean" profile, some of my own profiles - after recording it I realized that I should in fact have displayed my Axe clean presets instead (they have more.. yes, mojo ! :p) , but didn't want to redo it. The video ends with a short demonstration of parallel compression. Download it quick, I don't want to upload it on Youtube or whatever and will put it down in a few days

http://pages.intnet.mu/fremen/Movies/TAF_69_paracomp.wmv

0:00 : the TAF profile the OP likes, played with various pickup positions
0:16 : one of my own clean profiles. I by pass the compressor and the reverb/delay just after selecting it. Compressor back on at 0:29
0:36 : another of my clean profiles. Again I bypass the pre-amp compressor pedal, which role is to keep things clean. I play with various volume pot levels/pickpu positions. Effects back on at 1:17
1:36 : again, the TAF profile
1:51 : nothing to see/hear, I'm pluging my guitar back in the Axe
2:09 - Axe-Fx II this time, displaying some post-amp compression, on my lead sound
2:48 : I bypass the direct sound so you can hear only the post-amp parallel compression thing. The filter block is selecting medium frequencies only on purpose
3:28 : I raise the level of the parallel compression beyond what I would normally use
03:47 : hear how without the compression, the sound loses some roundness/juiciness

That preset is available in my 18.12 banks on my blog, however it was just a test, I use the non-parallel compression version
 
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