Struggling with dynamic and punchy cleans

lqdsnddist said:
How exactly could that work ?

If you want the sound of a real cabinet on stage, then use a real cabinet.....
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I was Cliff... if I know how it could be done ;)
Cliff wrote that axefx reproduce mic'd tone. I would like the amp emulation to sound like the real deal, not like a mic'd one. The cab does not get into equation. I talk about feel, not eq o reflection into the wall.
If it is already done, then I think there's still a gap between algo's and real deal. Otherwise, there is no gap but Cliff's goal is different than mine (have unmic'd sound on stage).
 
I'm also still struggling a bit with this elusive 'punchy' thing; to my ears there is a big difference between those clips:

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT55HOJ4He4&sns=em
Nice chops. Tone sounds percussive, round, soft, punchy, when 'digging in' you know it's going to bloom nicely...

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZozQKW01v-s
Nice chops. Dare I say the tone sounds comparatively thinner, harsh and less punchy? As if there are some low mids missing? A tad brittle on the dusty end notes? The feeling that if you really dug in it might spike my ears kinda thing? This is similar to what I hear with a PRS through my XL...

I guess it probably a bit apples & oranges though, considering the guitar & amp choices above are very different.

I know this is verrrrrrry subjective stuff, frustrating for some, emotive even for others, but I believe there is a lot to be learned here for many of us here if we can examine this further without falling out! Top level pro's have obviously sorted this out for the big stages (either by themselves or with the help of fractal techies), but it appears that many of us mortal gigging guitarists struggle with this aspect of the AFX. Perhaps, as cliff has said, paradoxically it is compression that we are looking for! I have to try out some of the tips provided in this thread asap. I soooo hope this thread continues well, thanks all...
 
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RoshRoslin said:


Is this clip any closer?
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Interesting reading here..I would chime in but I'm not really sure what OP means. Especially since the last thing i heard about the kemper is that my friend had trouble getting as he said "cleans that really stick in the mix". I think both sound good but use the Axe primarily as an FX-unit and then (too) its kind of a no-brainer.
But I gotta ask, whats the setup on this vid ^?
 
Trouble with all of this is we don't know how load the OP has it in room. I think this is fundamental in this instance as opposed to discussions of the texture of tone when sharing clips gives a very good comparison. If the reference amp / Kemper setup takes the paint off the wall when he hits it hard anyone trying to come up with a equivalent Axe patch would need to do the same. And of course, if it's made into a sound clip, it would need to be played back at a similar volume.

If the CLR is cranked up so loud is really loud with the Kemper, what fraction of loud is obtained by hitting the strings at light, med and hard pressures when the Axe is used. This might give us some clue as to what's going on...if it's really dynamics.
 
Just out of curiousity, and because at this point, I suspect just a difference in bass to be the thing the TO is aiming for: are you actually using the same IR on the Kemper and the Axe?

If not, then really, you should try some different IRs first or adjust the resonance frequency.

I've found the Kemper to be more bassy than the Axe at most default settings (and also add some hidden compression, but that might be my imagination running wild).
 
These type of threads always end up feeling like guerrilla marketing (not saying that is the case, but just how it feels)

Basically 6 pages of helpful people trying to post suggestions, audio clips etc, with an OP (and few others at times) simply that keep saying "yeah thanks, but the KPA sounds better still" over and over, with no actual proof or clips.

Its like all you really take away from reading a thread like this is thinking 1) members on the Axe forum sure are helpful 2) its awesome that even Cliff Chase himself responds to threads 3) The KPA sounds more "amp in room" somehow
 
lqdsnddist said:
These type of threads always end up feeling like guerrilla marketing (not saying that is the case, but just how it feels).
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I was thinking the exact same thing this morning.

Since we can't seem to get any agreement on the terminology, and the OP doesn't seem willing to post clips, or to engage directly with those who have posted their own clips, I can only think of one or two more things to try.

1. OP can post the "non-dynamic" preset to the patch exchange site, and others can download/tweak/discuss settings etc.
2. OP can also share the Kemper profile (I don't have a KPA, but I know there is some mechanism for sharing presets) so that those who have an Axe and Kemper can compare and see if they notice the same things the OP has mentioned. As I said, I don't have a Kemper or I'd participate there.

I'm happy to download an Axe patch and play around with it.

Beyond that, if the OP is not willing to engage a little deeper, we'll just have to write this off as someone who just wants to complain.
 
Eanna said:
I'm also still struggling a bit with this elusive 'punchy' thing; to my ears there is a big difference between those clips:

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT55HOJ4He4&sns=em
Nice chops. Tone sounds percussive, round, soft, punchy, when 'digging in' you know it's going to bloom nicely...

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZozQKW01v-s
Nice chops. Dare I say the tone sounds comparatively thinner, harsh and less punchy? As if there are some low mids missing? A tad brittle on the dusty end notes? The feeling that if you really dug in it might spike my ears kinda thing? This is similar to what I hear with a PRS through my XL...

I guess it probably a bit apples & oranges though, considering the guitar & amp choices above are very different.

I know this is verrrrrrry subjective stuff, frustrating for some, emotive even for others, but I believe there is a lot to be learned here for many of us here if we can examine this further without falling out! Top level pro's have obviously sorted this out for the big stages (either by themselves or with the help of fractal techies), but it appears that many of us mortal gigging guitarists struggle with this aspect of the AFX. Perhaps, as cliff has said, paradoxically it is compression that we are looking for! I have to try out some of the tips provided in this thread asap. I soooo hope this thread continues well, thanks all...
Click to expand...

the tone of the Morgan is far more thin sounding than the second clip.

and I'm a mortal gigging guitarist and have zero issue with dynamic, responsive, punchy tones in a live setting....whether it's a club a church or a stadium....
 
also, for me...those types of tones come from having a little grit on the tone and using dynamics in your playing to get that response. bone dry clean tones with tones of "headroom" never feel responsive to me, not even in actual amps.
 
jlynnb1 said:
the tone of the Morgan is far more thin sounding than the second clip.

and I'm a mortal gigging guitarist and have zero issue with dynamic, responsive, punchy tones in a live setting....whether it's a club a church or a stadium....
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Glad to hear you're getting on well & thanks for taking the time to respond.
I guess since we have such dramatically different takes on what sounds thin, you may not be the ideal one to help me with this unfortunately.
 
Smilzo said:
Cliff wrote that axefx reproduce mic'd tone. I would like the amp emulation to sound like the real deal, not like a mic'd one. The cab does not get into equation. I talk about feel, not eq o reflection into the wall.
Click to expand...

Cliff was speaking, specifically, about the combination of an AMP and CAB block. Any time you use a CAB block you're introducing a microphone in to your signal chain. If you don't want that, than run your patches without a CAB block in to a traditional guitar cabinet. The only way we have to capture guitar cabinet sounds is with microphones.
 
And threads like this is the reason why I love Fractal and am a Fractal Fanboy for life. I've never seen any other product anywhere that has as much user support as Fractal, to the point where all these people offer their time for free trying to help someone obtain the tone they want, to the point where even the CEO/Creator responds many times offering information. You certainly can't get any direct help from Bill Gates when you have a problem with Windows, haha, but Cliff is a amazing person that has made a amazing product, and his guitar playing is pretty good too. Even though this thread had no interest to me as far as the tone it was trying to help with, I really enjoyed reading it anyway because it just further illustrates how great Fractal users have it.
 
Dang, this place is a tough crowd. I've been a member here for 3 or so years. Owned the Axe for nearly 3. Sung it's praises many times here and on TGP, and now that I bring one thing forward that is not praising the Axe I'm a guerrilla marketer for Kemper?

Sorry I've been busy lately and haven't had a lot of time to spend on the issue. I've already provided the name of the FREE (included on the KPA) profile several times. Described to the best of my ability the very clean, bouncy, very touch sensitive, dynamic, punchy tone I am after. I said that anyone with an amp with a good clean channel (and possibly a master volume) or a KPA should be able to reproduce at reasonable bedroom volumes. At least one other person has said they are struggling with the same issue. I've been told repeatedly that a miked amp tone can't sound like an amp in the room, but I found at least one KPA profile through a CLR that gets me close enough (and that is a miked amp tone). I love most things about my Axe II Mark II and it is probably something I am doing wrong, but this tone has been way harder to find than I had hoped. I figured someone would post a preset to try or a knob to turn that would get me where I want to go. No such luck.

I will try to post a clip in the next few days if I get the time. But figuring out how to record a good example from the different devices takes time I just haven't had.

Thanks to everyone who has tried to help. For those that think I'm troll I just have to laugh. 3 years is a long investment to set up a troll thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
iaresee said:
Cliff was speaking, specifically, about the combination of an AMP and CAB block. Any time you use a CAB block you're introducing a microphone in to your signal chain. If you don't want that, than run your patches without a CAB block in to a traditional guitar cabinet. The only way we have to capture guitar cabinet sounds is with microphones.
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Request like that always make me wonder if the people making them have ever actually miked their cab or done any recording, as what they are asking for simply isn't possible.

I mean do people complain to the producer when they are hearing the final mix-down that it doesn't sound like the amp in the room ?

Should a CD come with a free power amp and 1x12 cab for the home user to use a playback system, as that is really the only way to give the end listening the amp-in-room effect. Its all akin to a tv chef complaining that when he watches the program he's not getting the smells from the kitchen he experienced when taping the show.



Its also kind of a palm to face moment when you tell people there is a simple solution to get the amp in room tone they want, use a real cab and power amp! Want your Axe to sound and feel just like your open back 2x12 combo does in your music room ? Turn off cab modeling and use a 2x12 open back cab!


But people don't seem to want to do that, they want to monitor with some very directional desktop near fields, at a lower volume, yet still have it sound the same as the sound radiating from those 2 12's in every direction around the room, and when it doesn't its an issue of the Axe not being "realistic" enough, and request for Cliff to make it sound "like a real amp"
 
AZG said:
Dang, this place is a tough crowd. I've been a member here for 3 or so years. Owned the Axe for nearly 3. Sung it's praises many times here and on TGP, and now that I bring one thing forward that is not praising the Axe I'm a guerrilla marketer for Kemper?

Sorry I've been busy lately and haven't had a lot of time to spend on the issue. I've already provided the name of the FREE (included on the KPA) profile several times. Described to the best of my ability the very clean, bouncy, very touch sensitive, dynamic, punchy tone I am after. I said that anyone with an amp with a good clean channel (and possibly a master volume) or a KPA should be able to reproduce at reasonable bedroom volumes. At least one other person has said they are struggling with the same issue. I've been told repeatedly that a miked amp tone can't sound like an amp in the room, but I found at least one KPA profile through a CLR that gets me close enough (and that is a miked amp tone). I love most things about my Axe II Mark II and it is probably something I am doing wrong, but this tone has been way harder to find than I had hoped. I figured someone would post a preset to try or a knob to turn that would get me where I want to go. No such luck.

I will try to post a clip in the next few days if I get the time. But figuring out how to record a good example from the different devices takes time I just haven't had.

Thanks to everyone who has tried to help. For those that think I'm troll I just have to laugh. 3 years is a long investment to set up a troll thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Sorry dude but none of that helps your case....

Lets breakdown yet another post...

- You've provided the name of a free KPA profile and encouraged everyone to try it

- You state again that any good clean tube amp (or a KPA) can produce the tone you want, yet the Axe can't

- You state (correctly) that the Axe sounds like a recorded amp and not "amp in room" but say again that the KPA gets closer

- Still no clips


So again, what do we really take away from your post other than KPA is a better unit than the Axe for doing basic tones that any tube amp can do ? If that is your opinion, its fine, I'm not saying your wrong, but why not just stick with the KPA then ? If it sounds more like an amp to you and no clip from the Axe sounded right to you it seems your just wasting your time trying to coax those sounds from the Axe.
 
lqdsnddist said:
These type of threads always end up feeling like guerrilla marketing (not saying that is the case, but just how it feels)

Basically 6 pages of helpful people trying to post suggestions, audio clips etc, with an OP (and few others at times) simply that keep saying "yeah thanks, but the KPA sounds better still" over and over, with no actual proof or clips.

Its like all you really take away from reading a thread like this is thinking 1) members on the Axe forum sure are helpful 2) its awesome that even Cliff Chase himself responds to threads 3) The KPA sounds more "amp in room" somehow
Click to expand...
Honestly my take is that the OP is on a quest to learn how to dial in a type of 'punch' that has so far eluded him, and is primarily comparing his AFX with his tube amp in this regard.
I have a similar issue which is why I'd personally like this thread to continue. It's unfortunate that OP mentioned the bloody K-word as I don't think it's relevant to this issue at all.
I've actually learned some useful tips between this and the FM curve thread today, so if this one upsets you sure why not just ignore it until it fizzles out?
 
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