Struggling with dynamic and punchy cleans

[chris]

Lol! The word THUMP quite literally is derived from a bass-y noise. When is the last time you heard a thump go hissss or splash? It's an onomatopoeic word that really can only exist in bass frequencies. Thump your foot on the floor. Does it sound like the thump exists in the 8k spectrum of sound? 1k? No, it's much lower.

Punch, to me, is just another word for a fat point that exists in low frequencies. Drummers want punch from a bass drum. Bassists are forever looking for punch, especially if they have poor technique and they allow notes to flop and bleed into each other causing a rumble (yet another bass-y descriptor).

There's nothing hi-endy about a punch to the gut, or a punch to the face. Punches are blunt and abrupt, and go "thud".

I realize this is all opinion here, but man, there is NOTHING about the terms PUNCH or THUMP that have to do with the high frequency response of a guitar's tone. To me.

I guess we'll have to find better descriptors. But I thought onomatopoeia was pretty agreed-upon.

i agree that Thump is a low-end characteristic.

but Punch is all about the "PUH" sound and it's sort the mid thing that hits you. when a Kick drum needs more punch, it needs more mid presence for fidelity. thump for lows, punch for mids, click for highs. same for guitar, where punch is that mid-range saturation.

at least that's how i interpret "punch." (i've edited because i stated it wrong before.)

i think another term people are interpreting as "punch" is "bloom" where the note can over saturate and sound more "immediate" or punchy.

lack of punch usually comes from too much low end in the tone covering it up.

 

[5150]

i agree that Thump is a low-end characteristic.

but Punch is all about the "ch" sound and it's sort the mid/upper-mid thing that hits you. when a Kick drum needs more punch, it needs more mid presence for fidelity. thump for lows, punch for mids, click for highs. same for guitar, where punch is that mid-range saturation.

at least that's how i interpret "punch."

i think another term people are interpreting as "punch" is "bloom" where the note can over saturate and sound more "immediate" or punchy.

lack of punch usually comes from too much low end in the tone covering it up.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. To me, there is nothing punchy about a "ch" sound. That's almost sibilant, and if you wanted to remove or reduce a "ch" sound, I doubt you'd start on the low end.

If you were a cartoon artist, and you drew Batman punching The Joker in the gut, and you wanted to emphasize the drawing with a descriptive word, what would be the word you would use to describe the punch? "Ch"? "Splash"? "Hiss?" "Buzz?"

I'm only half joking here.

I would probably choose "thud" or "thump" or "oomph" -- something guttural, something low end. Punch a wall. Does that feel like the delicate sizzle of a cymbal? I've never heard anyone play a solo on a guitar, just wailing away in the upper frets, and had someone say, "hey that's punchy!" Smooth? Sure. Silky? Yes. Saturated? Yes. Buzzy? Ok, but maybe not my taste in solo sounds. But not punchy.

Heck, the very word itself is punchy! It's explosive and guttural, and has a low end immediacy.

If we want to describe punch as a low-mids thing, that's cool. But as a description for the treble portion of a guitar tone? I feel like that's stretching it a bit.

 

[Bojangles]

Without derailing this thread any more

For me

- Thump emphasizes the *ump
- Punch emphasizes the Phh*

However we digress

 

[5150]

lack of punch usually comes from too much low end in the tone covering it up.

Totally agreed here. Too much low end causes a boomy rumble that can hide dynamics. But let's say you had a boomy sound. How would you tame it with EQ? Naturally, most of us would use a high pass filter, or find a way to focus on the offending frequencies and lower their response. Taking a boomy sound and cranking up the high end (as was suggested several posts earlier) is rarely a fix for curing boomy-ness. (I'm purposefully not discussing amp preamps here, as we all know they have weird inter-dependencies).

 

[JCBitB]

Lol! The word THUMP quite literally is derived from a bass-y noise. When is the last time you heard a thump go hissss or splash? It's an onomatopoeic word that really can only exist in bass frequencies. Thump your foot on the floor. Does it sound like the thump exists in the 8k spectrum of sound? 1k? No, it's much lower.

I've never heard something that made me think it "thumped" without a transient being part of it.

 

[5150]

Without derailing this thread any more

For me

- Thump emphasizes the *ump
- Punch emphasizes the Phh*

However we digress

Totally not my intention to derail the thread. Given the lack of clips and presets available here, it's worth trying to define what folks mean by punch, thump, etc.

Let's get back to fighting Axe vs Kemper...er...I mean...trying to address the OP's issue.

 

[chris]

funny, mackie made a Thump line of speakers that focused on the low end...

it's great reading all these different definitions of words like "punch" etc. can we keep that going? some of your descriptions are so far from mine!

i don't think it's a derail at all, since those words are exactly what the OP was seeking. and if we all have different definitions, how can we possibly help him? it's what i said from the start actually.

 

[Rex]

A brief hop onto the sidetrack, then back on topic (if that train is still running):

Thump is a low-frequency phenomenon, but a little boost around 1 kHz and/or around 4 kHz will make the bass sound more powerful/punchy. The difference between a punch to the gut and a push to the gut is speed.

 

[Zelja]

It's hard to explain, but as you pick the note on a tube amp, it blooms a bit, and there's a longer amount of natural sustain than on the Axe Fx.

To me, this sounds very much like the acoustic coupling you get get between speakers & guitar stings when operating with a bit of volume (& generally you are always operating with a bit of volume with tube amps as they sound very unsatisfying at low volumes).

I honestly think that people often are not aware of the different volumes they play at when using a tube amp compared with the AxeFX at home. The Axe sounds pretty decent/authentic at low levels so you are fooled into thinking you are playing louder than what you are. At least this happens to me! Turn it up more & it always sounds better & more alive!

Re, this thread, no need to send barbs the OP's way. Let him try some stuff & come back with some responses or let it be. Certainly there have been lots of helpful suggestions in there that the wider community can benefit from, so am thankful to all those that offered their suggestions.

 

[5150]

I've never heard something that made me think it "thumped" without a transient being part of it.

That's cool. I know that I have. I can easily think of many examples. I live in a house with carpet over a wood floor. If I THUMP my foot on the floor, there is no transient*.

*By "transient" I'm assuming you mean a high-frequency sound that exists at the start of a waveform. Not everyone defines it that way, but it sounds to me like that's how you're using it here.

 

[5150]

funny, mackie made a Thump line of speakers that focused on the low end...

it's great reading all these different definitions of words like "punch" etc. can we keep that going? some of your descriptions are so far from mine!

Sure we can! As long as the OP is cool with it. Or perhaps it's best to start a new thread?

I don't think it's a derail at all, since those words are exactly what the OP was seeking. and if we all have different definitions, how can we possibly help him? it's what i said from the start actually.

My thoughts exactly, which is why I started down that path. It is pretty interesting.

 

[Speculum Speculorum]

OMMFG I can't believe this thread is still going.

 

[Stratoblaster]

it's great reading all these different definitions of words like "punch" etc. can we keep that going? some of your descriptions are so far from mine!

In my own little world "Thump" is a low end kick to the gut (think a bass thru an SVT/8x10 and cranked, or a big fat bass drum thru a nice PA with subs). "Punch" to me is all about articulation and fast attack, any frequency but mainly low/mid ones (think of a maple neck Strat into a NMV Marshall, turned up and playing some killer Deep Purple riffs).

 

[Solarfire]

I don't know if you all have noticed or not but the OP seems to have stepped out a long time ago, so what's then point? Perpetuum mobile thread?

 

[chris]

I don't know if you all have noticed or not but the OP seems to have stepped out a long time ago, so what's then point? Perpetuum mobile thread?

He hasn't stepped out. He just doesn't reply every 10 minutes, which is completely fine. Some people only post once a day.

 

[soon]

He hasn't stepped out. He just doesn't reply every 10 minutes, which is completely fine. Some people only post once a day.

I think OP hasn't posted in awhile because OP did say he'd not be back until Thursday to try all these suggestions out.

As far as the adjectives and jargon, I think it'd be great if Cliff created a dictionary of these terms so that all of us in the Fractal community could have a Standardized dictionary of the meanings of these words so that we could all be on the same page, meaning thump or whatever word would be defined by Cliff and we could use his dictionary to choose the right words to describe things. Put it on the Axe Wiki. I think that could be useful and maybe avoid a lot of confusion that comes about when people try to use those types of terminology.

 

[lqdsnddist]

As far as the adjectives and jargon, I think it'd be great if Cliff created a dictionary of these terms so that all of us in the Fractal community could have a Standardized dictionary of the meanings of these words so that we could all be on the same page, meaning thump or whatever word would be defined by Cliff and we could use his dictionary to choose the right words to describe things. Put it on the Axe Wiki. I think that could be useful and maybe avoid a lot of confusion that comes about when people try to use those types of terminology.

Just like when Cliff puts specific information in the release notes about changes and yet we still get 100 post about "why such and such is happening" lol

 

[Wolfenstein98k]

I think OP hasn't posted in awhile because OP did say he'd not be back until Thursday to try all these suggestions out.

As far as the adjectives and jargon, I think it'd be great if Cliff created a dictionary of these terms so that all of us in the Fractal community could have a Standardized dictionary of the meanings of these words so that we could all be on the same page, meaning thump or whatever word would be defined by Cliff and we could use his dictionary to choose the right words to describe things. Put it on the Axe Wiki. I think that could be useful and maybe avoid a lot of confusion that comes about when people try to use those types of terminology.

Try section 16.18, titled "Glossary & Resources", in the Owner's Manual.

 

[Smilzo]

I just want to say, I am HAPPY the Axe FX sounds like a RECORDED amp and not a amp in the room. .... If I wanted the amp in the room tone I'd just stick with real amps haha. I like recorded tones because most of the music I've ever heard in my 40 years of life has been CDs coming through my speakers, and that's the tones I want to recreate.

I like recorded tone in the studio.
I like unmic'd tone live, because I've heard them comin' out of speaker in stage for decades.
I stick with real amps on stage, after a go with axefx, still using it for fx. But I want to understand why my ZEV (zero emission vehicle) must be dropped for a gasoline HEV (Heavy e.v. ).


About "I want the axe to stay like this!" attitude.
I like to share my impression and idea with boutique amp builder, I consider Cliff one of them. I offer him my impression to the best. If he could improve the product, fine. If it can't be done, fine.
I think I was the first to talk with Cliff about scenes, before Ultra days. Someone wrote "I don't like the idea, I love simplicity, don't go for it". In any forum respect for other suggestions and opinion is as important as your own opinion. We should try to help each others, not going against each other. "I like your idea, dude, take care to maintain current feel because I love it", that's a good attitude.

 

[Morphosis]

This discussion seems to be full of subjective perceptions and descriptions (thump, pressure, compression vs. "open" dynamic sound, etc.), also many Apple to Oranges comparisons (Kemper Profile vs. Axe-Fx Preset -> different frequency responses; FRFR vs. guitar cabinet, etc.).

Cliff mentioned some suggestion to get into more objective territory (TMA the Kemper) and this is a way to get obejctive comparisons...

That said, i was very sceptical and had many issues for myself in these categories in the past, but always tried to figure it out, where it comes from by doing extensive A/B comparisons with many different rigs / signal chains. Just refering to this thread, as example... where i learned something about frequency response and the speaker page, also with the help from Cliff, he kindly chimed in... and this was on FW13, if i remember right....

I honestly think it's the power amp sim. This weekend I experimented with running my Axe Fx into the fx return on my two Engl Gigmasters, (turned off amp sim and cab sim) and the tube amp feel was back. Considering getting rid of my CLRs and just running that way from now on.

I doubt it. Use a solid-state power amp and plug the Engl speakers into that then you'll have a real test. Until then it's just speculation and uncontrolled tests.

In the thread i mentioned above i had the same impression, my Koch`s Tube Amp gives me a "3D" and "thump", "compression" i could`nt get out of the Axe-Fx Amp Sim respectively a SS Amp, connected to the same (!) guitar cabinet. At the end of the day it WAS in fact 1) a frequency issue. After a TMA (clone the Koch into the Axe-Fx) & dialing in the "impedance curve" speaker page correctly to the actual cabinet, the sound and pressure of the Axe-Fx was as good, as with the real Tube Amp. The "3D" sound (impression, that the sound did not gluing at the speakers membrane,when playing through the Axe-Fx) was gone, after FW14... if i remember correct.

I also had a Kemper for three weeks for a test and i compare both machines extensiveley. And yes - oftenly i had the impression, that the pressure and feel the Kemper do was on some more cleanish profiles better than with the Axe-Fx. But could NOT verify this "first" impression, after re-adjusting and tweak some Axe-Fx Presets. The Axe-Fx can do it ALL! And in the meanwhile better with more in-deep control of certain parameters.

We did at the Axe-Fest 2014 a fair comparison between the Axe-Fx+SS State power amp (Matrix GT1000) and a damn good Plexi derivate, both fairly connected to the identical speaker cabinet (Diezel 212, Celestion G12K100 loaded).

Note the Axe-Fx Input LEDs from minute 2.00 on ...
OFF = guitar -> Lehle A/B switch -> Reußenzehn Plexi Tube Amp -> Diezel cabinet Speaker 1
ON = guitar -> Lehle A/B switch -> Axe-Fx Plexi100W High -> Matrix GT1000 -> Diezel cabinet Speaker 2


The Axe-Fx was SPOT on! With a solid state amp and a Sim, we just tweak nothing, but Presence to ten! So: No tonematch, no exorbitant tweaking!

You may say now: Yes, but this is not a cleanish sound, i can`t find the "compression" punch and chimey "3D" i am looking for ... I did at the Axe fest exactly the same experiment set-up also with a actual 70ies Fender Super Reverb (stunning clean sound!!!!!), connection the Matrix to the speaker (4x P10R) of that combo and again the same with a Vox Ac30 blonde, loaded with Bloedogs. The owners of those Amps were stunning, how close the Axe-Fx was! Especially for those "3D", Punsh, compression, Amp-in-the room experience, blah blah ....

The Axe-Fx IS superior for what it does and it is designed for! This is ... and this is my personal opinion - a fact. Persiod. A fact, based on comparisons like these ...