Struggling with dynamic and punchy cleans

[elkabyle]

I don't know, but he seemingly has the disposable income to own both an Axe and a KPA, so he's probably doing better 99% of the world.....
He's got a tube amp that gets him the sound he wants, and he's got a KPA, which also gets him the sound he wants.

He said he borrowed the Kemper. He probably does not want to buy one just for that very patch he likes. He simply wants to recreate that sound in the axe-fx. Not that he didn't get any help from many people here... But as he mentioned, he's busy and he probably doesn't have time to record samples which will describe exactly what he means.

Everyone should stop posting and wait for the OP to update when he's got the time to digest all the info/suggestions/help provided by forum members and Cliff himself. It's an interesting post, hopefully it will end on a positive note.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[dbun]

edit: Damn, I swore to myself I would keep out of threads like these. Failed.

I know what you mean!

 

[mikeyg]

The guy (Tyler?) who,posts all the SRV clean clips, those show off major clean tone dynamics. I was able to dial in a similar tone that's equally as good as my modded Bandmaster in terms of tone and dynamics.... Took about 5 minutes

 

[RoshRoslin]

exactly...you get those tones by having an amp on the edge of breakup and using playing dynamics to get the response you need.

Haha right?

This kind of thing is so silly. People dive through so many menus to get their sound and I'm over here like "I thought we all played the guitar, not our amps and pedals and axe fx". Use the knobs on your guitar people!

 

[lqdsnddist]

The guy (Tyler?) who,posts all the SRV clean clips, those show off major clean tone dynamics. I was able to dial in a similar tone that's equally as good as my modded Bandmaster in terms of tone and dynamics.... Took about 5 minutes

He also makes all his patches freely available (though donations are appreciated) and also tells the cabs used (in the event they aren't factory)

 

[retro_dad]

Did the OP ever say what kind of guitar or pickups he's using in his quest for these dynamics? It kinda matters I think

 

[brianv4]

+10 Yek. for what it's worth... i've used the fender deluxe in the axe thru a clr on stage side-by-side with an actual fender deluxe. blind listening and playing couldn't determine which was which. I get great, satisfying clean tones - the princeton is my fav with the blues jr. a close 2nd

 

[soon]

Yeah, tylers srv clips are the best cleans ever from the fractal. And and mark day is the best distorted tones of the axe fx ever. Metallica and steve vai aren't having any problems with punch, neither were tyler or mark day.... the op has been given the info, the fractal is capable of anything, he apparently just isn't smart enough to understand and utilize the info this forum has given him. It's not rocket science.

 

[Bojangles]

 

[JCBitB]

I have a feeling the OP isn't trying a compressor because he thinks it was condescending of us to suggest it, but 10 bucks says that's all he needs. True, it actually makes the amp LESS dynamic, but when set right it puts the guitars signal more permanently in the sweet spot that really seems to make the speaker jump. Is it more dynamic? no... is it bouncier that way? usually!

The other thing I would suggest is go easy on the bass knob, and go crazy with the proximity knob on the null mic. Also set that speaker page up in the amp block so the high and low peaks hit right where you need them. Next, check the bright switch, and the bright knob. They give more splash, and make the bass feel more nimble. In fact, usually when I want punchier bottom end, I've found its actually top end I want, because there's nothing thumpy or punchy about bottom end. It's just woofy air moving. A little snap and brightness in your tone almost always fools you into thinking you've got better bass.

I get punchy dynamic cleans in about 10 minutes that keep my 60's bandmaster in the corner collecting dust. I even sold my Dual Showman Reverb. If I try all the above and I'm not getting results, I nearly always find I've neglected my strings, and it's a good time to change them.

 

[Kingjimmi]

Want an even more epic thread and a reminder of the stuff you had to put up with in the analog world? Check out the Vertex Wah scandal. They had about 4000+ posts.

HRI • Huge Racks Inc • View topic - Vertex Axis Wah = BBE Ben Wah

TLDR
Some boutique pedal maker gooped and rebadged a BBE Wah and then tried to claim it as his own design and charge ~$400 for it. Took 4000 posts to wear the pathological liar down and have him finally admit his lies.

Edit: I'm not trying to imply the OP is a bad guy like the protagonist of the Vertex Scandal. Just brought it up, because long threads like this tend to devolve into roughly what happened in the example above . . . A whole lot of posts that at the end of the day could have been summed up in about 10 posts if the right questions and answers were given by the correct people without all the noise.

 

[dwmichaels]

I know Cliff had asked about the Kemper model the OP used. I checked the Kemper site and according to the profiler "line up" for guitar rigs, it is:
TAF - 69 Amps Clean | 65 Amps Tupelo | 65 Amps Tupelo 4*12 Greenbacks | Earthworks TC 30/Neumann U 87/Royer R121

Profiler | Factory Rigs: Amp, Cab & Mic Reference List

That is certainly a very specific sound and, lord knows, the Axe is a very specific sound. I would imagine that you could start, as Cliff had suggested, with something like the vibroverb, then start adding the other components like the 4*12 cab w/greenbacks (if there is an IR) then root around for the mikes and then cycle through the mic locations, right?

Then color to taste with the other various Axe settings.

FYI the | signifies a new column on the Kemper site. It looks like the rig name is "TAF - 69 Amps Clean", the Amp name is "65 Amps Tupelo", the cabinet name is "4*12 Greenbacks" and the Cabinet/Mic type is "Earthworks TC 30/Neumann U 87/Royer R121".

Edit: That said - it would appear that Cliff is referencing the Amp name and the OP is referencing the Rig name... but that they are talking about the same one.

 

[mrstrat]

the dynamic, punchy mojo thing I am talking about is more a feel thing that is much more apparent when playing than listening to a recording.

I do know what you're talking about. It's absolutely a "feel" thing, that I only notice on the clean tones. Don't get me wrong...I LOVE the clean tones on the Axe Fx, but when soloing using a clean tone, the feel is absolutely different than playing through a real tube amp. It's hard to explain, but as you pick the note on a tube amp, it blooms a bit, and there's a longer amount of natural sustain than on the Axe Fx. Again, totally a feel thing...I don't think you would hear it.

I honestly think it's the power amp sim. This weekend I experimented with running my Axe Fx into the fx return on my two Engl Gigmasters, (turned off amp sim and cab sim) and the tube amp feel was back. Considering getting rid of my CLRs and just running that way from now on.

 

[chris]

I honestly think it's the power amp sim. This weekend I experimented with running my Axe Fx into the fx return on my two Engl Gigmasters, (turned off amp sim and cab sim) and the tube amp feel was back. Considering getting rid of my CLRs and just running that way from now on.

what cabs did you use? real cabs are a huge part of that difference as well. you didn't JUST change power amps.

 

[ThelmoRego]

My go to clean is usually the doubleverb, I find it so punchy that I usually use a comp just to control the dynamics a bit but everyone is different I guess.

 

[mrstrat]

what cabs did you use? real cabs are a huge part of that difference as well. you didn't JUST change power amps.

Good point Chris. I'm running the stock Celestion Super 65 with one (Combo), and an EVM12L on the other. (Head) It could be a function of the power amp interaction with the speakers...but I thought the Axe Fx took all of that into account.

I've tried multiple IR combinations in the Axe Fx to no avail...I honestly don't think it's the speakers.

 

[Eanna]

Good point Chris. I'm running the stock Celestion Super 65 with one (Combo), and an EVM12L on the other. (Head) It could be a function of the power amp interaction with the speakers...but I thought the Axe Fx took all of that into account.

I've tried multiple IR combinations in the Axe Fx to no avail...I honestly don't think it's the speakers.

You could try something like a power soak after your engl to run a Line level post-amp signal back into your AFX (on an effects return block?) and compare how the cab IR reacts to this instead? I assume lots of ppl not to mention Fractal have tested this kinda stuff to death over the years tho...

 

[FractalAudio]

I honestly think it's the power amp sim. This weekend I experimented with running my Axe Fx into the fx return on my two Engl Gigmasters, (turned off amp sim and cab sim) and the tube amp feel was back. Considering getting rid of my CLRs and just running that way from now on.

I doubt it. Use a solid-state power amp and plug the Engl speakers into that then you'll have a real test. Until then it's just speculation and uncontrolled tests.

 

[5150]

....there's nothing thumpy or punchy about bottom end. It's just woofy air moving. A little snap and brightness in your tone almost always fools you into thinking you've got better bass.

Lol! The word THUMP quite literally is derived from a bass-y noise. When is the last time you heard a thump go hissss or splash? It's an onomatopoeic word that really can only exist in bass frequencies. Thump your foot on the floor. Does it sound like the thump exists in the 8k spectrum of sound? 1k? No, it's much lower.

Punch, to me, is just another word for a fat point that exists in low frequencies. Drummers want punch from a bass drum. Bassists are forever looking for punch, especially if they have poor technique and they allow notes to flop and bleed into each other causing a rumble (yet another bass-y descriptor).

There's nothing hi-endy about a punch to the gut, or a punch to the face. Punches are blunt and abrupt, and go "thud".

I realize this is all opinion here, but man, there is NOTHING about the terms PUNCH or THUMP that have to do with the high frequency response of a guitar's tone. To me.

I guess we'll have to find better descriptors. But I thought onomatopoeia was pretty agreed-upon.

 

[happycritter]

Trouble with all of this is we don't know how load the OP has it in room. I think this is fundamental in this instance as opposed to discussions of the texture of tone when sharing clips gives a very good comparison. If the reference amp / Kemper setup takes the paint off the wall when he hits it hard anyone trying to come up with a equivalent Axe patch would need to do the same. And of course, if it's made into a sound clip, it would need to be played back at a similar volume.

If the CLR is cranked up so loud is really loud with the Kemper, what fraction of loud is obtained by hitting the strings at light, med and hard pressures when the Axe is used. This might give us some clue as to what's going on...if it's really dynamics.

Prompted by Hysteria's comment:


Here are a few suggestions:

1) Send an audio clip and patch of your 'best dynamic yet' AFII patch

2) Send an audio clip of your desired KPA '65 patch

3) Wait for some gurus to make specific suggestions/patch-mods and then try them (one, by one)


Here is a couple of comments:

a) the perceived difference in behavior between the AFII and KPA may actually be acoustically driven and different EQ-ing between AFII and KPA patches may contribute (room response and speaker location may have been altered so make sure everything stays-put while this trial/comparison phase is completed otherwise your results may be meaningless: same position of speakers, same playing position, same relative volume on CLR, etc.).

b) this seems to be the standard 'life after the microphone' results that the AFII so ably provides versus some of the usual desired 'amp in the room' sound some folks find 'lacking' (although, 'life after the microphone' is the environment in which most professional musicians operate and it never affects their performance or enjoyment for playing ).

EDIT:

I appreciate where 5150 is coming from about thud/punch/rumble being low-end phenomena, however, there are some well known psychoacoustic effects where high-frequency boosting also cause a *perceived* boost in the low-end (off the top my head, I believe 12dB boost 10k produces something like a *perceived* 2dB boost at 100Hz or somewhere along those lines).

Another suggestion - in your AFII amplifier modifiers switch all of your resistors to Carbon Comp if they aren't already, because if it is dynamics that you are truly seeking then in the 'real world' these would be the best option (if you didn't have to worry about hiss/noise).