Struggling with dynamic and punchy cleans

[Karl Houseknecht]

A real tube amp played in a room is typically quite loud and causes compression of the human auditory system. When listening to a modeler with monitors the volume is typically far less and less auditory compression occurs. Hence the impression that the sound has "less dynamics".

OP, Cliff says to turn up the volume.

 

[FractalAudio]

To me the Axe FX is almost too touch sensitive. I pick anywhere from very lightly to hitting it hard like SRV. I find that no matter how clean I set an amp in the Axe FX that it distorts when I hit the strings hard.

Turn down the gain. It's not rocket science.

 

[AZG]

since no one posted any sound clips, i'm posting these, possibly horrible and off topic, just to get some sort of gauge about what we're really talking about.



the first 10 seconds is one setting, the last 10 seconds is a different setting. there are 2 riffs played in each setting - used a looper so it's exactly the same performance.

do either of these have the "punch" or "headroom" vs the other one? i know we're originally talking about cleans, but again, since no one posted actual examples, i have to start somewhere.

Your recording has dirt in it. I'm looking for a completely clean tone that doesn't break up at all or only a tiny amount under the heaviest of strumming. Volume, punch/kick/thump all vary greatly depending on how you attack the strings. As Cliff described, the tone has a lot of bounce in it if you use a lot of pick dynamics.

The tube amp I am comparing to is a (I hate to say it's name because people often hear with there eyes) Bugera V22 that I paid less than $300 new. The clean channel is as good, or nearly as good, as any of the other tube amps I've had in the past (Fender, Marshal, Mesa), the dirt channel is good but not great. With the master around 4 and gain about 6 on the clean channel the V22 is clean, or almost completely clean, no matter how hard you hit. Tons of bounce and headroom. If memory serves me correctly both my old Fender and Mesa could produce similar clean sounds with relative ease. I have found at least one profile on the KPA that has similar bounce and headroom when played through my CLR. It doesn't sound exactly the same, but that's not my goal. I just want to find that bouncy and very dynamic feeling clean tone. My studio monitors (KRK Rokit 8 G2's) flatten things out, so the differences get lost on them.

I'm not sure what else to say? The tone I am looking for is not unusual IMO. Nothing I've tried on the Axe has gotten me the same results as of now, but I have a few more suggestions from this tread to try.

Thanks for everyones input and help.

 

[AZG]

A couple questions for the OP:

1. You've done an admirable job of attempting to describe what you're looking for -- it's hard to put sounds into words. Can you take it a step further and define what "punchy" is to you? The reason I ask is because, to me, punchy is a term specifically referring to harmonic content at the lower end of the EQ spectrum. "Punch" is what drummers want from kick drums, and is something bass players with sloppy technique are always chasing. For guitarists, I find the word "punch" describes how the lower strings respond based on the EQ curve of the setup.

2. There are folks making recommendations regarding output compression, sag, etc -- did any of these changes help move you closer to where you want to go? Or did these recommendations move you away from the sound you're chasing?

3. If you can't post a clip, can you provide a reference point from a recording? If you could reference a song that has this tone, we could work it backwards.

4. Have you messed around with MV and input trim? I know that when I was new to the unit I was struggling with dialing clean tones I wanted to hear. Some of the amp models I was using default to a MV level of 10 (max) which could be very dirty depending on the amp. I had to get my brain wrapped around the idea of the virtual MV with respect to the level of real world volume coming out of my monitors.

Thanks for the reply.

1. See my last post for more description.
2. I tried sag and did not notice any improvement. Other things still to try.
3. I might try recording a clip, but not sure when I will have the time to do so.
4. Tried everything. Backing off input trim and MV helped on a few amp models. But still not getting there.

 

[laughyouraxeoff]

Your recording has dirt in it. I'm looking for a completely clean tone that doesn't break up at all or only a tiny amount under the heaviest of strumming. Volume, punch/kick/thump all vary greatly depending on how you attack the strings. As Cliff described, the tone has a lot of bounce in it if you use a lot of pick dynamics.

The tube amp I am comparing to is a (I hate to say it's name because people often hear with there eyes) Bugera V22 that I paid less than $300 new. The clean channel is as good, or nearly as good, as any of the other tube amps I've had in the past (Fender, Marshal, Mesa), the dirt channel is good but not great. With the master around 4 and gain about 6 on the clean channel the V22 is clean, or almost completely clean, no matter how hard you hit. Tons of bounce and headroom. If memory serves me correctly both my old Fender and Mesa could produce similar clean sounds with relative ease. I have found at least one profile on the KPA that has similar bounce and headroom when played through my CLR. It doesn't sound exactly the same, but that's not my goal. I just want to find that bouncy and very dynamic feeling clean tone. My studio monitors (KRK Rokit 8 G2's) flatten things out, so the differences get lost on them.

I'm not sure what else to say? The tone I am looking for is not unusual IMO. Nothing I've tried on the Axe has gotten me the same results as of now, but I have a few more suggestions from this tread to try.

Thanks for everyones input and help.

I didn't read through the entire thread so if you already did this then nevermind.... Post a link of the tone you're looking for say from youtube or some place, what one person describes to others as being one thing, is a totally different beast to someone else,but hearing it would be helpful. I suppose you could also create a preset with the Axe II that is as close as you can get, record that, then the kemper, then share those recordings here and the patches too so everyone who has both can take a look at them and give you even better advice. To me if you don't do that, your odds of going in circles and not finding the answer one way or another is greater...

 

[FractalAudio]

Your recording has dirt in it. I'm looking for a completely clean tone that doesn't break up at all or only a tiny amount under the heaviest of strumming.

Turn down the Drive until you don't get any breakup. When I Tone Matched that profile I ended up with the Drive at 1.7 and, as I said previously, the Axe-Fx sounds bouncier, punchier and overall better than the profile. This is simple stuff people. If you are getting distortion you turn down the Drive and/or MV until you don't.

 

[AZG]

Turn down the Drive until you don't get any breakup. When I Tone Matched that profile I ended up with the Drive at 1.7 and, as I said previously, the Axe-Fx sounds bouncier, punchier and overall better than the profile. This is simple stuff people. If you are getting distortion you turn down the Drive and/or MV until you don't.

Cliff, thanks for responding to this thread. It really is unusual to see the creator and owner getting personally involved. I really respect how much you care about making your products better and really do love your products.

I've made a number of presets that don't breakup, but still don't have the same bounce or headroom. Can you post your tone match preset so I can see if it has what I am looking for?

 

[Lionheart]

One word: BAND-COMMANDER

Best clean amp in the Axe-Fx, in my opinion. Punchy, dynamic and will not break up easily.

 

[lqdsnddist]

One word: BAND-COMMANDER

Best clean amp in the Axe-Fx, in my opinion. Punchy, dynamic and will not break up easily.

Yep, a great one, as is the Concert model, stays super clean

 

[Webb]

since no one posted any sound clips, i'm posting these, possibly horrible and off topic, just to get some sort of gauge about what we're really talking about.



the first 10 seconds is one setting, the last 10 seconds is a different setting. there are 2 riffs played in each setting - used a looper so it's exactly the same performance.

do either of these have the "punch" or "headroom" vs the other one? i know we're originally talking about cleans, but again, since no one posted actual examples, i have to start somewhere.

Obviously the first sounds better. The second section would be good if you're going for the blanket over speaker sound.

 

[FractalAudio]

I've made a number of presets that don't breakup, but still don't have the same bounce or headroom. Can you post your tone match preset so I can see if it has what I am looking for?

If it doesn't break up then what do you mean by "headroom"? The Tone Match preset would be in XL+ format for FW 19.00beta2. I will gladly post it if you can use it.

At this point though my recommendation is to sell the Axe-Fx and buy a Kemper. The Axe-Fx ACCURATELY models the sound and dynamics of a mic'd tube amp. If you don't like it's inherent sound and like the Kemper better you should buy that and be happy.

 

[mjross]

If it doesn't break up then what do you mean by "headroom"? The Tone Match preset would be in XL+ format for FW 19.00beta2. I will gladly post it if you can use it.

At this point though my recommendation is to sell the Axe-Fx and buy a Kemper. The Axe-Fx ACCURATELY models the sound and dynamics of a mic'd tube amp. If you don't like it's inherent sound and like the Kemper better you should buy that and be happy.

There you have it.....

 

[lqdsnddist]

I've made a number of presets that don't breakup, but still don't have the same bounce or headroom.

What are you trying to refer to as "headroom" ?

Normally headroom is referred to as how much input an amp can take before it starts to distort/break-up. An amp without much headroom will start to distort when you dig into the strings, often this is musically preferred. Amps with a lot of headroom will stay cleaner longer.

Saying that you have made patches that don't breakup, but that don't have "headroom" is kind of an oxymoron, as least in the traditional sense of the terms.


Also, what is "bounce" ? I'm guessing your using this as a synonym for the more common, though still ambiguous, terms of "squish" or "sag", and you actually want an amp that has very little sag ?

 

[5150]

If it doesn't break up then what do you mean by "headroom"?

This is a good question. To me, the word "headroom" doesn't mean very much to me in the modeling world. Clean, undistorted volume and power out here in meatspace is independent of the virtual power amp in the Axe. If it's set completely clean in the Axe, and I'm amplifying it accurately through monitors, or a CLR, or a PA, then it should remain clean at whatever volume.

 

[5150]

Also, what is "bounce"? I'm guessing your using this as a synonym for the more common, though still ambiguous, terms of "squish" or "sag", and you actually want an amp that has very little sag ?

I don't know how the OP defines "bounce" but to me, it's *not* squish or sag. To me, a ball that bounces wouldn't be squishy. That's just me though, and I'm weird.

 

[Smilzo]

The Axe-Fx ACCURATELY models the sound and dynamics of a mic'd tube amp.

I wish we could have unmiked tube amp tone. Even as global option, if it require different mathematical models. Or different product, AXEdiret II vs AXEmic'd II... The unmic'd amp on stage it's a different beast, IMO. And many players love it, even with all struggle associated (mic'd, eq'ing, boominess...)...

 

[Hysteria]

It sounds to me like the OP is talking about volume. When he plays softly it is quiet, a bit harder and it gets louder, whacks it hard and he jumps out of his skin. But with a low-gain setting so the sound stays clean. Just like a valve amp. I think dynamic (dynamic range) is pretty accurate here. The dynamic range between hitting it hard and stroking it is big. This relies on the CLR being turned up quite loud I guess (I don't have any experience with these). Maybe the output levels from the Axe are different to the Kemper but if the soft volumes are comparable and the loud volumes (hitting it hard) are vastly different, that would suggest a difference in dynamic range of the two.

For recording you probably don't want this but that's an aside in his request I think.

 

[Disconnector]

Right on. Different folks have different ears and likes. I have a very good friend that prefers his Pod HD500 Fender models through a K10 over my real 1965 Super. Really. It takes aaaallllll kinds for sure.

I'd love to buy that XL brother

Disconnector.

 

[Webb]

I wish we could have unmiked tube amp tone. Even as global option, if it require different mathematical models. Or different product, AXEdiret II vs AXEmic'd II... The unmic'd amp on stage it's a different beast, IMO. And many players love it, even with all struggle associated (mic'd, eq'ing, boominess...)...

You already can. Disable the cab block and hook it up to a power amp and speaker cabinet.

 

[lqdsnddist]

I wish we could have unmiked tube amp tone. Even as global option, if it require different mathematical models. Or different product, AXEdiret II vs AXEmic'd II... The unmic'd amp on stage it's a different beast, IMO. And many players love it, even with all struggle associated (mic'd, eq'ing, boominess...)...

How exactly could that work ?

If you want the sound of a real cabinet on stage, then use a real cabinet.....

Only way to experience/reproduce the sound of a real cab in a room is to use just that, a real cabinet. Any time you mic, or otherwise record a cabinet, it stops sounding like a real cabinet in the room. This has been true since the very first mic was placed in front of a speaker cone.

Things that are certain are death, taxes, and that no matter what you do, what tube amp you use, what mics you use, what digital modeler you use, it will NEVER sound exactly the same recorded/through a playback system, as it did when you were in the room with an amp.


About only thing you could do is get something like an open back CLR, so it would disperse sound like a real open back cabinet, but then you'd be stuck with the issue of any other IR sounding like an open back cabinet as well, which brings us full circle to using a real open back cabinet and disabling cab modeling if that is what you want.