Struggling with dynamic and punchy cleans

[chris]

I "It's super dynamic, punchy, warm and fun to play" I meant it is very touch sensitive, a light touch is softer and quieter, medium touch is louder with more punch/kick/thump, very heavy touch is very loud with a thunderous punch/kick/thump. Tons of headroom so to speak. The complete opposite of compressed.

I am not able thus far to get the same tone out of the Axe II through the exact same CLR at the same volume.

So to further clarify, you're saying that when you play quietly on the Axe, it doesn't get as quiet as the other things do?

I'd still love to hear a recording of anything. I really do not experience lack of dynamics.

 

[RoshRoslin]

Shiver clean.

Just remember: you're referencing a MIKED guitar tone (amp-cab-mic block) if you're using axe fx to CLR.
What you're hearing from a 1x12 tube amp is just the amp and speaker filling up the room.

It's been said time and time again, this is an apples and oranges comparison. Get a power amp for the axe fx or run the output through the fx loop of an amp and compare again.

 

[Wolfenstein98k]

This is irony, right? I'm always a little shaky on irony, but this sure feels like it to me.

"a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result."

I could iron my shirt with that!

 

[AZG]

Shiver clean.

Just remember: you're referencing a MIKED guitar tone (amp-cab-mic block) if you're using axe fx to CLR.
What you're hearing from a 1x12 tube amp is just the amp and speaker filling up the room.

It's been said time and time again, this is an apples and oranges comparison. Get a power amp for the axe fx or run the output through the fx loop of an amp and compare again.

KPA into CLR gets pretty close to the real tube amp in this one instance. Axe into CLR does not have the same clean headroom in my testing. Same CLR speaker, one can do it pretty well the other not as well. How do I close the gap?

 

[Wolfenstein98k]

I thought my original few posts were pretty clear, but let me try to clarify more. When I said "It's super dynamic, punchy, warm and fun to play" I meant it is very touch sensitive, a light touch is softer and quieter, medium touch is louder with more punch/kick/thump, very heavy touch is very loud with a thunderous punch/kick/thump. Tons of headroom so to speak. The complete opposite of compressed.

Yep, I'm more certain than ever that you mean compression, AZG.

Have you tried my suggestion - namely, to turn up Dynamics and Output Comp? This results in a greater dynamic range going into the amp (more control over gain with your technique), and more "punch" by compressing the result. The "feeling of punch" is compression in action - it's NOT dynamic range. A big difference in volume is rarely actually desirable, and not a "punchy" sound. A nice compression gives the "feel" of that volume difference, without the troubles and discomfort that comes with actual volume drops. Louder sounds warming up by heading further into the red of compression, IS the punchy sound.

Give it a shot.

 

[lqdsnddist]

KPA into CLR gets pretty close to the real tube amp in this one instance. Axe into CLR does not have the same clean headroom in my testing. Same CLR speaker, one can do it pretty well the other not as well. How do I close the gap?

Pick an amp model with more headroom ?

 

[rsf1977_again]

Thanks for the reply. Most of the Fenders already have MV at 10, but I will try the supply sag suggestion.

try upping the Dynamic Depth and Presence. Also, try messing with the Dynamics knob.

 

[lqdsnddist]

Also for what its worth as a former KPA owner.... I've found the Axe models have a lot more touch sensitivity these days than the KPA models did. Back around FW10 or so I'd give a slight edge to the KPA, slightly more touch sensitive, and could do a nice edge of breakup, but with the latest Axe FW's I think the Axe has become way more sensitive, going from very clean to a great "kerrang" just with differences in how you attack the strings. Just incredible dynamics IMO

 

[electronpirate]

KPA into CLR gets pretty close to the real tube amp in this one instance. Axe into CLR does not have the same clean headroom in my testing. Same CLR speaker, one can do it pretty well the other not as well. How do I close the gap?

Well, I can see you have some pretty good advice here. It is VERY difficult to nail a tone that is a bit ethereal like 'Clean punchy and dynamic' (a tone like 'I need Marshall Crunch' which means a million different things to each individual). I have no problems getting that kind of tone on several types of clean...all with varying sets of EQ so they sound different. Many of the presets are very good when it comes to this...just bump up the compression on a few and see if they work.

Maybe it's not the right thing to do or say, but if the KPA profile works best for the tone you're looking for, maybe just run with it? IMO.

R

 

[Rex]

When I said "It's super dynamic, punchy, warm and fun to play" I meant...The complete opposite of compressed.

As an experiment, just try the Amp block's Output Compression. It'll only cost you 30 seconds. If we're wrong, we're wrong.

 

[chris]

Axe into CLR does not have the same clean headroom in my testing.

See now you're calling it "clean headroom" which to me is not the same - somewhat opposite - of "punchy."

Which is it? Headroom so you have room to get louder, or "punch" which is a major result of the squeeze of compression?

I concur: try the Out Comp parameter in the amp block between 1 and 2.

And give us a recording.

 

[grape]

Lots of us have AxeFX's and CLRs so here's what you can do to let us experience this ourselves:

1. Record a dry signal (with your dynamics that represent the issue) of your guitar (direct into a DAW).
2. Record a wet signal out of the Kemper (dry from DAW > Kemper > DAW)
3. Record a wet signal out of the AxeFX (dry from DAW > AxeFX > DAW)

Post the 3 audio files (1 dry, 1 Kemper wet, 1 AxeFX wet) along with the preset used on the AxeFX (heck, include the Kemper settings too and those with Kempers can also A/B).

This will allow us to reproduce pretty much EXACTLY what you are hearing. We can A/B the AxeFX wet vs Kemper wet recordings through the CLR. The dynamic difference should be evident to us at this point.

Then we can take the dry recording and reamp through the AxeFX with your preset to the CLR. This will allow us to mess with the preset to match the "dynamics" of the Kemper wet recording. Then we can post the preset and you can try it out.

I don't think you are trolling or "wrong" per se. I've had these types of dynamic "issues" as well and had to change the various compression settings before and after the amp (no matter how accurate the modeling is) to get it "right". To me, this can make or break my satisfaction with a tone.

 

[trancegodz]

When I said "It's super dynamic, punchy, warm and fun to play" I meant it is very touch sensitive, a light touch is softer and quieter, medium touch is louder with more punch/kick/thump, very heavy touch is very loud with a thunderous punch/kick/thump. Tons of headroom so to speak. The complete opposite of compressed. The real tube amp does this wonderfully.

To me the Axe FX is almost too touch sensitive. I pick anywhere from very lightly to hitting it hard like SRV. I find that no matter how clean I set an amp in the Axe FX that it distorts when I hit the strings hard. My guitar is set up properly. It's not the guitar. When I hit the strings harder playing through my real amps it gets way louder and stays clean. On the Axe FX it gets a little louder but distorts.

Several people here have suggested you try adding the output comp in the amp block. I suggest this also. While it doesn't seem to make much difference on some amps, on many amps setting the output compression on about 2 will make a clean amp sound really good. On many of the Fenders in particular.

 

[chris]

Lots of us have AxeFX's and CLRs so here's what you can do to let us experience this ourselves.

I think this list was really well thought out, but the underlying problem here I think is trying to describe what he wants.

It's like he is calling something "white" so we think a light color, but he is in reality describing something that is dark red, so all our trials to lighten up the color still won't fix things because it's not making it more red, which he is calling white.

 

[Rex]

I find that no matter how clean I set an amp in the Axe FX that it distorts when I hit the strings hard.

Turn down the gain!

Between Input Drive, Master, and Input Trim, you can make almost any amp model crystal clean no matter how hard you hit the strings.

 

[Wolfenstein98k]

To me the Axe FX is almost too touch sensitive. I pick anywhere from very lightly to hitting it hard like SRV. I find that no matter how clean I set an amp in the Axe FX that it distorts when I hit the strings hard. My guitar is set up properly. It's not the guitar. When I hit the strings harder playing through my real amps it gets way louder and stays clean. On the Axe FX it gets a little louder but distorts.

Several people here have suggested you try adding the output comp in the amp block. I suggest this also. While it doesn't seem to make much difference on some amps, on many amps setting the output compression on about 2 will make a clean amp sound really good. On many of the Fenders in particular.

That's a whole different ball game. But in short, turn it up louder, then turn down the drive. Use Input Trim if you don't wanna alter the tone but just want to pull some drive out of it. Otherwise try the Input Drive.

You have more headroom than you'll ever need in the Axe. You just need to learn how to use it. The Master Volume may be your friend.

 

[Wolfenstein98k]

Remember: The Axe, at comfortable listening volume, is NOT THE SAME AS an amp at the same volume. A "real" amp, unless it's a preamp distortion style amp, will not be distorting at that level. If you turn the model amp down to the settings you'd use on the real amp (ie, very low MV most likely), you'll realise this.

Watching a few people fiddle with an Axe, they think it sounds totally different, but that's because they're hearing it with the MV at 4 (or whatever it defaults to), but at comfy volume. Go plug into an SLO-100 and turn the MV to 4 and stand in front of it. Very different experience, no?

Edit: by "not the same" I don't mean that it is less accurate - just that it has volume controls that amps obviously don't have. It's ridiculously accurate at all volumes.

 

[chris]

since no one posted any sound clips, i'm posting these, possibly horrible and off topic, just to get some sort of gauge about what we're really talking about.



the first 10 seconds is one setting, the last 10 seconds is a different setting. there are 2 riffs played in each setting - used a looper so it's exactly the same performance.

do either of these have the "punch" or "headroom" vs the other one? i know we're originally talking about cleans, but again, since no one posted actual examples, i have to start somewhere.

 

[Smilzo]

the first 10 seconds is one setting, the last 10 seconds is a different setting.
do either of these have the "punch" or "headroom" vs the other one? i know we're originally talking about cleans, but again, since no one posted actual examples, i have to start somewhere.

The first sound almost good (not my kind of clean), the second is... farting out... kinda like when you overdrive a cheap mixer channel...
Tube amp add a lot of distortion in the attack, even when you hear almost clean sound. A gentle punch in your face. Non too much gentle, because the overall sound has grit... there is a dynamic mix of harmonic alteration as the segnal goes by...

 

[5150]

A couple questions for the OP:

1. You've done an admirable job of attempting to describe what you're looking for -- it's hard to put sounds into words. Can you take it a step further and define what "punchy" is to you? The reason I ask is because, to me, punchy is a term specifically referring to harmonic content at the lower end of the EQ spectrum. "Punch" is what drummers want from kick drums, and is something bass players with sloppy technique are always chasing. For guitarists, I find the word "punch" describes how the lower strings respond based on the EQ curve of the setup.

2. There are folks making recommendations regarding output compression, sag, etc -- did any of these changes help move you closer to where you want to go? Or did these recommendations move you away from the sound you're chasing?

3. If you can't post a clip, can you provide a reference point from a recording? If you could reference a song that has this tone, we could work it backwards.

4. Have you messed around with MV and input trim? I know that when I was new to the unit I was struggling with dialing clean tones I wanted to hear. Some of the amp models I was using default to a MV level of 10 (max) which could be very dirty depending on the amp. I had to get my brain wrapped around the idea of the virtual MV with respect to the level of real world volume coming out of my monitors.