Still the best out there?

D

DanielRigler

Inspired
I’m not sure if this post is necessary, and/or appropriate here, but let me start with that I’m a long time admirer and supporter of Cliff and his achievement. I was an early adopter of the first gen ULTRA and currently have an Axe-Fx II. So I have absolutely no intention to troll around, really. But. I feel I need to vent this. Yesterday I have installed a VST plugin amp simulator that “promises high quality guitar tones that we are all looking for”. I will not tell explicitly which one, so it is not an obvious advertisement, but oh boy, was I blown away. My setup is less than ideal. Well actually very bad for running VST plugins. I was running WindowsXP on a virtual machine in Linux, and used my Axe II as an audio interface. So as you can imagine: there was a lot of latency. But even though the chords came out of the speakers at a completely different time than when I strummed them, it was amazing. Really. I have never felt such an instant gratification with the Axe-Fx. My feelings are quite mixed now. I really like the concept of the Axe. The routing, the robustness... and low latency. It is a very versatile beast, ideal for live performances too. I want to really like the amp simulations too, but I was never truly satisfied with them. Yes there are good... no, amazing sounds in the unit, but the amp models always felt a little bit characterless to me. Since currently I only use my Axe II at home, now I’m seriously considering switching to VST plugins. I already feel that the worst thing about this would be the fight against latency. By the way if anyone have tips for a good interface and ultra-low latency, please shoot me a PM. To sum it up, I know I should just use what I think is best suited for me. I’m curious though if anybody else had a “Wow this is better than the Axe-Fx” moment lately. Well, strictly in reference to modelers. ;)
 
Nothing wrong with your statement/question.
I work/record in Logic, and I always use Amp Designer. I hardly ever feel I must use the Axe when recording.
Convenience reasons.
I have bought an Apogee Jam a few weeks back, and now I can even connect to my IPad and use Amp Designer in GarageBand or AmpKit On my IPhone.
In a PC environment I'd recommend a Presonus interface.
 
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The Axe-FX II is the perfect solution for me! My Ultra was good, but the Axe-FX II was perfect for RECORDING and LIVE!!!
I don't need VST-Plugs and PC-Ampsimulations...all the stuff is in this great black box!!!
 
Hey Bullstein! Remember 2003/2004, the German Line 6 Forum? That's you, right? Good to see you back! With an Axe!
 
Thanks Doc! The new Presonus AudioBox 22VSL looks interesting for a not too expensive solution. I wonder what could be the lowest useable latency with that unit.
 
Doc said:
Hey Bullstein! Remember 2003/2004, the German Line 6 Forum? That's you, right? Good to see you back! With an Axe!
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That's right Doc, I remember! Nice to see you here too! I had my Ultra since 2008 till May 2011 and now my Axe-FX II since August 2011! ;-)
The rest in peace Line6 stuff is my good old vintage Pod2! ;-)
 
DanielRigler said:
Thanks Doc! The new Presonus AudioBox 22VSL looks interesting for a not too expensive solution. I wonder what could be the lowest useable latency with that unit.
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There are too many variables in a PC environment to estimate the overall latency, depending on the interface and its drivers, the motherboard, etc.
With my MacBook Pro + the Apogee Jam I get down to 6 ms roundtrip latency.
 
Bullstein said:
That's right Doc, I remember! Nice to see you here too! I had my Ultra since 2008 till May 2011 and now my Axe-FX II since August 2011! ;-)
The rest in peace Line6 stuff is my good old vintage Pod2! ;-)
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Same with me. Ultrafied since May 2008. I was a bit slow in ordering the Axe II so I will get mine only with the next shipment.
I'm still using Line 6 gear though. The HD is a great unit that gets good use during rehearsals and my new James Tyler Variax (JTV-69) just arrived 2 days ago. What a beautiful guitar.
Sorry for being O.T.
 
DanielRigler said:
there was a lot of latency. But even though the chords came out of the speakers at a completely different time than when I strummed them, it was amazing.
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Latency matters, don't you think? I wonder if I ever could get happy with it for live playin. I don't think so. I want to feel what im playing. It can get better with faster computers, but the latency will not disappear.
BTW I also don't think that the usual notebooks are reliable enough to take it with me for live jobs. I need something robust, that can take some wetness, heat/sun, trembling and whatever...19" computers exist, but I don't know much about it.

Now you got good results with the computer at once. What's missing for the axe-fx is kind of a preset collection for special guitars: Like saying you have a strat or a LP and you could load a strat collection or a LP collection of factory presets and all presets would work for your guitar, so you had good sounds from the start. Maybe that's part of the problem.
 
Just play what works for you in any given setting and don't worry about it being 'the best'.

If it works, it's fun and you like playing through/with it... why are you worried about what others think? I don't understand why folks do this.

We are musicians. We use gear as tools to make music. I don't think artists sit around debating the 'best' brushes... they discuss the tools (I imagine) but not the dreaded 'best' label. "That guy's art is in his fingers, he could make any brush look good...".

:D
 
Scott Peterson said:
Just play what works for you in any given setting and don't worry about it being 'the best'.

If it works, it's fun and you like playing through/with it... why are you worried about what others think? I don't understand why folks do this.

We are musicians. We use gear as tools to make music. I don't think artists sit around debating the 'best' brushes... they discuss the tools (I imagine) but not the dreaded 'best' label. "That guy's art is in his fingers, he could make any brush look good...".

:D
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+1 Not mention the Pro artists... I have only ever seen a few of the featured FAS artists post on this forum and they never had anything bad to say or tried to label the Axe.
 
I used the software you are referring to extensively and IMO the Axe-Fx II models are far superior. But everyone hears things differently and if you don't like the Axe-Fx II models then you shouldn't feel obligated to keep it.
 
Okay, the thread title is not the best I admit :) I was just truly amazed that VST style amp sims have evolved this far. The latency issue seems to be a deal breaker for me, so the Axe II doesn't go anywhere. After further testing, I agree that the Axe amp models are more... have a bit more realistic dynamics, feel etc. But the amp models in that other software :) are very special in their own way. But yeah, everyone hears things differently. They have so much character and mojo that I miss sometimes in the Axe. But I keep searching... maybe it is there hidden somewhere, or will come with a future firmware update. I'm talking about small things that I cannot really put into words, overall I'm quite satisfied with the Axe.
 
DanielRigler said:
I already feel that the worst thing about this would be the fight against latency. By the way if anyone have tips for a good interface and ultra-low latency, please shoot me a PM.
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That's the catch with plugins - I haven't found anything that matches the performance of dedicated converters and DSP processors, and you already have the best - the AxeII.

Each interface has it's own sound, as does each host (Reaper, Cubase, Protools, etc) so the best interface is not only acceptable latency but the most compatible sound with your ears, your monitors, your host, etc. MOTU's Ultralite and Microbook have parametric eq's and compression on inputs/outputs (except spdif) which helps (their higher end interfaces add reverb).

While there's no real solution to latency with plugins, one possible work around is to buy a case of beer and drink until you don't notice the latency. But this could lead to long-term problems and recordings that don't sound as good the next day.

Or you could stick with the AxeII and fiddle with it's eq's to see if you can find what you're looking for. It really could be that you just don't have the AxeII eq'd to your monitoring system.
 
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I used a lot of plugins and VSTs before the axe, and although I was impressed with how far the technology had come, there was a LOT missing from a real tube amp. Dynamics, that pick on the string kinda sound, that drive, the sag, the speaker breakup, the chime, and the high end and low end, which never seemed to sound right, and always sounded paper thin in comparison. I haven't used any software for guitar modelling for about a year, and I'm sure it has gotten better, but I highly doubt that they are nearly as good as the axe. Sure some of them have their own sound as well....every piece of gear is different, and the axe isn't everything to everyone, tho it comes VERY close in most cases. I've not quite been able to find the sound I'm looking for bass-wise in the axe, yet every single one of my guitar fantasies has been satisfied with the very same axe. It doesn't do EVERYTHING. I can still get sounds out of my psa that I can't get in the axe too. It's just that it also has its own sound, for better or worse.

I think that one day software will catchup with the axe - it is all digital, and inevitable. That day is still many years from now IMHO. My axe isn't EVERYTHING that I want, but I'm going to keep it till that day, and even beyond.
Why? Well, I really don't like to be lugging around laptops and dealing with latency issues, driver issues, OS issues and all the other issues that come with it.
Hardware trumps software almost every single time. I can reach out and adjust a knob on the fly, while still playing. It will be more challenging to adjust a parameter with a mouse. Although you CAN use controllers, I really like a quick and easy setup, and the axe is it for me there. I have a fairly complex rig, and it's NO fun to setup, and I really don't want the same with boggy software.

So my axe will prob go with me to the grave. Doesn't get me 100% of what I want all the time, but we're still early in the product life of the axe yet, and cliff has always been the best in terms of regular and quality firmware updates. NO other manufacturer does that, hardware OR software, and I'll support fractal for that alone.

At the end of the day, the axe is just another tool in my box, and I'll use whatever sounds good to me. It's the axe most of the time tho :p
 
I have used many software modelers with varying degrees of satisfaction. They are very useful in a recording context. But I always plug back into my Dumble clone after and am amazed at what a "real" amp can generate in terms of pure guts. Not just volume, but the immediacy of string to tone. Nothing quite like it existed.
Well a couple of days ago something happened that shocked me. I have been playing my Axe II exclusively for several weeks now. I plugged in to my amp to show it to someone and I was astonished to find that I got as much (I was about to write "more") of that immediacy with the Axe as with my amp. It's a weird admission which I never thought I would make.
I listened to the software referenced here. Being a Mac user, I can't install it on my machine, but I did listen to the demos by Jerry Stevenson (who uses an Ultra, btw :;)) and the sounds were indeed very good. But as he said himself in his notes, "To me the 'present' quality of the tones is more obvious when part of a mix, which is why I chose to put most of the sounds in a full band setting with other instruments." And I think that says it all.
That being said, I enjoyed his playing and the tones he got out of the pluggin. I just can't see using something like this live. And that where I live.
 
+1 on Patzags post - Live and recording dealt with equal aplomb from the same box is a massive biggie.
 
DanielRigler said:
I know I should just use what I think is best suited for me. I’m curious though if anybody else had a “Wow this is better than the Axe-Fx” moment lately. Well, strictly in reference to modelers. ;)
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All I can say is I think I've tried all the known plug ins available for guitar sounds, starting with the "Amp Farm" in Pro Tools ages ago, and while some are very decent, for my taste, so far nothing beats the Axe, but like it's been said we all hear different things and whatever works for you is what you should use.
 
I've used modellers many times and plenty of other FX units along the way - I could never say any of them were bad or horrible, but after using an Axe FX II it's not just the huge increase in sound clarity and quality that's blown me away but it's how it responds and feels and the ease of which I can now get tones. I've done subtle note nuances and the other units / software VST's just didnt detect them so as a musician it's a huge freedom being able to do things previously not possible simply because the Axe FX II picks up on them ! It's great being able to get all the EQ goodness from the beginning to the end of the fretboard when my previous fx units always limited me to " sweet spots only " doing scale runs now with picks has opened up so much versatility I've found myself playing in a very different way than before mainly because I no longer have the limitations I did ! Harmonics, squeals, palm mutes..just these 3 things alone now have so much more play in them than I ever had before. Really cant say enough good things about it. Great sounds is 1 thing, but combined with perfect responsivness I would have a very hard time going back to my old fx units now.
 
Although the II makes it drastically simpler/quicker to dial in a tone, there can still a bit of work to extract sonic nirvana from a given model. Just because you might think the Axe sounds inferior for a particular sound doesn't mean it's not capable of sounding superior, it just might need some adjustments in the preset design or amp/effect settings to get it there. After 2-1/2 years I'm still learning new tricks with this box.
 
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