Steve Vai Doesn't Like Amp Modeling - Rick Beato Interview

[Great South Bay]

Well I bet you Steve Vai wouldn't be saying any of this if he had to lug all of his equipment, and set it all up
each and every time he did a gig or session!

 

[tobafett]

I'm considering maybe going with a Fryette like Steve has for power amp paired with the AXEFX. I still have three Mesa 4x12s, and a MKIII and MKV, but I'm thinking of using my AxeFXIII modeling plus the Fryette for a live sound instead... I dunno, I'm not really needing it exactly at the moment but I'm kicking it around to be prepared.

That is what I do, especially at gigs where I want to have some sound on stage. I run FOH and the IEMs directly out of my FXIII and have a cab on stage running off of my LXII - sounds killer. At gigs where it isn't an option to run to FOH at all, the FXIII/LXII is awesome.

 

[JTI]

 

[SASouth]

The popular artist name and/or image associated with the gear manufacturer's product (which helps the manufacturer sell the product)


Yup, thats pretty much how it works.


Nope - Skills have value and can be sold - if you work to gain popularity, that popularity can be sold for $ (or gear if you want to be paid like that). No different than you or I going to work each day selling our skills to our employers (tho if my employment is as a top selling artist, the scale is quite a bit larger - congrats to me).

Always amusing how "free" is often defined here

This is why celebrity endorsements should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[sprint]

This is why celebrity endorsements should be taken with a grain of salt.

+1 - paid advertising - which makes total impartiality pretty much impossible

 

[Frodebro]

Any mention of latency makes me highly sceptical of anyone criticising modelling.

Especially someone who has been playing on large stages for over forty years.

 

[Stratman68]

Yea, I listen to gear podcasts and YouTube on my way to and from work everyday, and man, everyone on those programs rants and raves about helix, or QC, or more recently the ToneX stuff, and on those programs, it's like Fractal doesn't even exist, but of course, they're paid to talk those products up. Really, I'm sitting there listening to a podcast or video that has ads, which is really written to be a giant (and somewhat more subtle) ad for whatever brand's paying them, just so I get my undies in a bunch and go out and buy the latest thing...

It's stupid, and weird (although entirely typical given how the economy works) that there's this entire hype machine ecosystem to get guitarists to be constantly redoing rigs...

and in the meantime, my Axe rocks out better than any of them. Probably time to clean out the podcast and YT subscriptions.

I think part of the reason we always hear about the other companies is because they are sold at ONLINE RETAIL STORES\regular brick and mortar stores - like Sweetwater, MF, Guitar Center,.etc .

 

[la szum]

Oh look boys and girls. It's a TGP Mod who comes in trolling the Forum out of the gate.

Oh, the irony people. The irony!

 

[Frodebro]

Oh look boys and girls. It's a TGP Mod who comes in trolling the Forum out of the gate.

Oh, the irony people. The irony!

Big Mike over at TGP hasn’t been a mod for a very long time, at least four or five years.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Vai is a good player, one of the best, and I appreciate his talent… to land a gig with Zappa at that age says a lot, but he's not an influencer for me, especially things said back when about a technology that changes as fast as digital modeling, especially with a company that improves their firmware as quickly as Fractal. The current firmware is not what it was when the video was made.

There are a lot of great players who are using modelers; I enjoy Guthrie Goven, and the fact that he's been touring with his FM9 tells me that latency isn't an issue for him. That's good enough for me.

I have tube amps, (and will be owning one less after this afternoon,) and my modelers. I have never noticed a latency issue with my Fractals when I'm playing because I'm busy playing; If it's there it's short enough that it doesn't bother me, so I don't care. The gear is on par with how my tube amps feel.

 

[la szum]

Big Mike over at TGP hasn’t been a mod for a very long time, at least four or five years.

Yeah, I don't keep up on who is in and out over there. No need to add to any
revenue generated views at that place. So. My bad.

Troller's still trolling, though.

 

[lauke-lux]

AFAIK he endorses Ibanez very well and Ibanez are doing great axes even if I never owed one. Otherwise....

 

[DangMe]

There’s nothing like a loud amp flapping your pant legs, but for club gigs FOH guys hate loud amps. If you’re Steve Vai or Robben Ford they’ll tolerate it. I do miss the days of cranking up, wish it would come back in style tbh. And yeah the Fractal stuff is awesome.

 

[unix-guy]

That's a well discussed interview and it's from 4 years ago...

Another few things to mention:

• Steve had not converted to Axe Fx III yet when this video was done
• Steve is today currently using the amp modeling in the Axe Fx III at least for the Hydra guitar
• I'm not sure he was using IEMs back then (I think not) but he is today... I'm not sure how much he requires cabs on stage at this point

 

[AtomicJeff]

Steve Vai would praise and endorse a Walmart branded guitar if given enough money.

 

[Corinthian]

I have had an Axe (Ultra, II, now III Turbo) since mid 2009, so i'm fairly used to modeling.

When i go directly from my Cornford + 4x12 and over to my Axe i do notice a small difference.
In particular when i don't use fx and run a dry amp.

After some minutes i don't, but switching A/B i do, so it's not "out there" to notice this.
I have done this many times, to try to match my MK50 to the "Cornrob" model.
It's a diffrence if i stand 2-3 m further away from the cab too. Nothing to worry about, but i do notice and latency is a fact.

Using 1 amp with a 3 band eq simplifies a lot live (if you need to tweak for the room)

I like both tubes and my Axe and i use whatever makes me inspired on any given day. Right now it is a simple setup.

Cornford MK50 (dry into a 4x12) -->
Suhr RL--> Boss SDE-3000EVH -->Poly Verbs-->
Mesa 295 -->2x12 and a 4x12 for WD/WD.

Sounds huge and I can play loud at home

Per the wiki, the maximum latency with a drive, amp and cab is 2.9ms, which is equivalent to moving the cab just 1 meter further away.

Per wikipedia: In one study, listeners found latency greater than 15 ms to be noticeable. Latency for other musical activities such as playing guitar does not have the same critical concern. Ten milliseconds of latency isn't as noticeable to a listener who is not hearing his or her own voice. The linked study as well as other references I can find, suggest that 1-10ms is imperceptible to anyone, 10-15ms is sometimes perceptible but as more of a feeling than being able to hear it, and above 20ms it is perceptible as a delay.

So 2.9ms in itself is not perceptible, Steve Vai or not. But if your playback system is already 5 metres away then maybe an extra 2.9ms might be enough to make the delay unacceptable. But Vai uses wedge monitors next to his feet or in-ears so again, I'm sceptical and I think it's psychosomatic.

 

[Chromatizm]

So 2.9ms in itself is not perceptible, Steve Vai or not

Sorry, this is simply not correct. We've beaten this horse to so many deaths on the forum.
Even if you just look at quoted wiki entry, it says 15ms is the threshold. Hell, even 10ms. Do you personally believe it is not perceptible under 10ms? Cause I know it very perceptible.

Cliff said in some early interview that some people are more perceptible to latency than others. Once latency numbers from different digital devices start piling up, plus the distance from the speaker, you start to really feel it.

 

[sprint]

Sorry, this is simply not correct. We've beaten this horse to so many deaths on the forum.
Even if you just look at quoted wiki entry, it says 15ms is the threshold. Hell, even 10ms. Do you personally believe it is not perceptible under 10ms? Cause I know it very perceptible.

Cliff said in some early interview that some people are more perceptible to latency than others. Once latency numbers from different digital devices start piling up, plus the distance from the speaker, you start to really feel it.

beaten to death indeed, but the good ole "2ms is like standing 2 feet from yur cab" nausiatingly persists as a reason to say it doesn't matter. It's the cumulative latency in the overall rig that matters - add in loop or 2 and a couple of active external digital pedals and boom: you can be into perceptible latency for anybody regardless of personal threshold when using crappy gear. Low low latency stuff like Ax3 is key to managing latency in a rig with outboard digital connections.

 

[unix-guy]

Steve Vai would praise and endorse a Walmart branded guitar if given enough money.

I really don't think that's true...

 

[Corinthian]

Sorry, this is simply not correct. We've beaten this horse to so many deaths on the forum.
Even if you just look at quoted wiki entry, it says 15ms is the threshold. Hell, even 10ms. Do you personally believe it is not perceptible under 10ms? Cause I know it very perceptible.

Cliff said in some early interview that some people are more perceptible to latency than others. Once latency numbers from different digital devices start piling up, plus the distance from the speaker, you start to really feel it.

15ms is what is reported in studies. 10ms is when it starts feeling like there is something going on but the brain doesn't perceive it as a distinctly separate sound until around 15ms.

I tend to believe controlled tests over self-reported findings, regardless of how well regarded the person making the claim is. But just to satisfy curiosity I conducted two tests, one replicating the study quoted in wikipedia and one testing a simple latent response.

The first experiment tested at what point people perceived a sound as distinctly separate. I tested this with a digital mono delay block with the mix at 50%. At 13 or 14 ms is when it started to sound like a slapback delay rather than a single sound. So consistent with the study. Obviously at lower settings it's still clear there's something happening thanks to phase cancellation.

For the second experiment I set the mix to 100% to see at what point I noticed a latency between what I was playing and what I was hearing, which is what's important in this case. I used headphones to avoid any additional latency between speaker and ear. Using only an amp block, so per the wiki the inherent latency should be 2.3ms. At around 8ms (so 10.3ms in total) it starts to become noticeable and 11ms (13.2ms in total) it starts to become distracting.

Not perfect experiments of course - an N=1 sample size and non-double-blind - but both results are pretty consistent with what the science says. So, do I believe that <10ms is imperceptible to everyone? It seems to be imperceptible to most people. There may be some people who can perceive lower latency but I've yet to see evidence besides people's own claims. Do I believe any of those people could perceive <3ms and therefore perceive latency in the AxeFX, absolutely not!

beaten to death indeed, but the good ole "2ms is like standing 2 feet from yur cab" nausiatingly persists as a reason to say it doesn't matter. It's the cumulative latency in the overall rig that matters - add in loop or 2 and a couple of active external digital pedals and boom: you can be into perceptible latency for anybody regardless of personal threshold when using crappy gear. Low low latency stuff like Ax3 is key to managing latency in a rig with outboard digital connections.

As I wrote "But if your playback system is already 5 metres away then maybe an extra 2.9ms might be enough to make the delay unacceptable."

Of course it's the overall latency that affects the player and of course it accumulates. But add a loop or 2 and a couple of active external digital pedals to a tube amp and boom, there's perceptible latency there as well. But I don't hear people complaining about the latency of tube amps.