Should the "AIR" effect be more pronounced?

[bigbrown2056]

I actually like the way the air sounds right now. Since I set it pretty low raising it's effect would probably render it unusable to some.

 

[Radley]

It just occurred to me how we're a funny bunch... months ago, someone suggested as a possible enhancement a mix parameter for the cab blocks, and many people were very enthusiastic about it.

Now Cliff adds the Air parameter (which, after a bit of puzzlement, has been revealed to be adding some of the dry signal to the cab signal, i.e. a "hidden" mix parameter), and as a result most of us are going "huh?" or "wtf?!??!"

Now that I know what it is (and that I understand why it was like throwing a blanket over my amp when I left it at the default 1000 hz frequency), I'll play around with it some more... armed with the knowledge that it's some form of mix for the cab block.

I'd be curious to know what the resulting "mix" level is at Air=100%...

Daniel

Actually, I am the one who suggested that, and most people here poo-poo'ed it right off the bat - amazing how our memories play tricks. The difference would be that you could add a lot more direct than with the current air control, without filtering. I still believe full direct mix control is a good thing.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

The difference would be that you could add a lot more direct than with the current air control, without filtering.

You can do the same thing with a filter block in parallel with the cab block, or a mixer block after the cab block with the cab output and a shunt in parallel with the cab both going into the mixer.

 

[Radley]

The difference would be that you could add a lot more direct than with the current air control, without filtering.

You can do the same thing with a filter block in parallel with the cab block, or a mixer block after the cab block with the cab output and a shunt in parallel with the cab both going into the mixer.

Exactly, but we already know that - I just thought having the parameter within the block would make it a much more accessible /usable option - that's why it was requested. It would also be possible to do a free-hand version of Cliff's filtered Air circuit, but who would really go to the trouble to configure it if it had not been presented as a simple parameter adjustment?

 

[Guitar-Tiz]

but who would really go to the trouble to configure it if it had not been presented as a simple parameter adjustment?

I would. That is if I needed something like that. But I'm an experimenter, and I'll try anything if I think it might sound cool.

 

[jakeykim]

If I remember correctly, Boss GT-8 had this "direct" mix parameter in cab sim. I don't know if its predecessors had it. With GT-8, I almost had to use the parameter since all cab sims except the one that goes with a given amp were extremely muddy. I kind of liked it.

In AxeFx, this parameter just makes already great amp sound super good. I love the way it mixes the high in a subtle but not too direct way (maybe due to some low-pass filtering that Cliff mentioned). I liked the setting around 3kHz and sometimes even 8kHz.

Jake

 

[m lebofsky]

What average % are you guys ending up with on a)cleans, b)crunches and c)brutalz

 

[supersecretjim]

So by "low pass filter", am I to understand that is cutting or filtering out highs above the selected frequency?

 

[mitch]

So by "low pass filter", am I to understand that is cutting or filtering out highs above the selected frequency?

Correct. That's why you need to raise the frequency a bit to really hear it add some additional sizzle.

If anyone wants to hear a quick demo, I posted one in the recordings section...
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7675&start=0

 

[Jay Mitchell]

It would also be possible to do a free-hand version of Cliff's filtered Air circuit, but who would really go to the trouble to configure it if it had not been presented as a simple parameter adjustment?

Anyone who is interested in checking out the sound that setup produces. Why it is considered a "problem" to push a few buttons on the front panel and add one or two virtual processing blocks is something of a mystery to me.

FWIW, a mix control is useful on other modelers and speaker emulators because simulation quality is lacking. In the case of the Axe-Fx, the sound you get is as good as the IR you use. If your IR is good, you will not need to play tricks to get it to sound like the speaker from which it was acquired.

 

[javajunkie]

It just occurred to me how we're a funny bunch... months ago, someone suggested as a possible enhancement a mix parameter for the cab blocks, and many people were very enthusiastic about it.

Now Cliff adds the Air parameter (which, after a bit of puzzlement, has been revealed to be adding some of the dry signal to the cab signal, i.e. a "hidden" mix parameter), and as a result most of us are going "huh?" or "wtf?!??!"

Now that I know what it is (and that I understand why it was like throwing a blanket over my amp when I left it at the default 1000 hz frequency), I'll play around with it some more... armed with the knowledge that it's some form of mix for the cab block.

I'd be curious to know what the resulting "mix" level is at Air=100%...

Daniel

Actually, I am the one who suggested that, and most people here poo-poo'ed it right off the bat - amazing how our memories play tricks. The difference would be that you could add a lot more direct than with the current air control, without filtering. I still believe full direct mix control is a good thing.

amazing how our memories play tricks

Absolutely, I just did a search and I can't find one place where someone put down that suggestion:

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=6298&start=10
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7362&p=71725&hilit=direct#p71725
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6498&p=63098&hilit=direct#p63098


All I see are suggestions on how to implement it and some caveats to avoid.

 

[porieux]

Can anyone explain why this feature would use a lowpass rather than a hipass (or bandpass) filter? I would have thought cutting out the lower freqs and only using the HF content would be more desirable in an effect like this, what am I overlooking?

 

[GM Arts]

Can anyone explain why this feature would use a lowpass rather than a hipass (or bandpass) filter? I would have thought cutting out the lower freqs and only using the HF content would be more desirable in an effect like this, what am I overlooking?

No, you definitely want to filter out highs if you're emulating a cab. Try bypassing the cab lock (with the AxeFX into FRFR) to hear the high-end junk you don't want.

 

[GM Arts]

I must admit I thought this thread was a little frivolous at first, but hving played around witha filter block in parallel with the cab, my vote is for more range on the Air. I think I'd want to be able to turn it up a little too much so I can back off and find the sweet spot.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

No, you definitely want to filter out highs if you're emulating a cab.

Well, if you're "emulating a cab," you really want an IR that does a good job of "emulating a cab." Then you won't need to play games with a parallel dry signal. I've personally never found such a trick necessary. Had I ever wanted to try it, the means to do so have been there all along.

 

[Dr. Von Goosewing]

Mo, just to better hear it....take a high gain amp, crank up the highs and presence, then set the air to 100% and sweep the air frequency. As you sweep the frequency up, you'll definitely start hearing the raw buzzy amp tone coming through. I'm still trying to figure out how to balance this with the other tone control options for my own taste, but it definitely can have a strong effect at the extremes.

That's pretty much what I was thinking. If you crank it up to 100% then sweep through the frequencies, the effect is very pronounced.

 

[mortega76]

Mo, just to better hear it....take a high gain amp, crank up the highs and presence, then set the air to 100% and sweep the air frequency. As you sweep the frequency up, you'll definitely start hearing the raw buzzy amp tone coming through. I'm still trying to figure out how to balance this with the other tone control options for my own taste, but it definitely can have a strong effect at the extremes.

I'll have to do that, thanks Mitch!

 

[porieux]

Can anyone explain why this feature would use a lowpass rather than a hipass (or bandpass) filter? I would have thought cutting out the lower freqs and only using the HF content would be more desirable in an effect like this, what am I overlooking?

No, you definitely want to filter out highs if you're emulating a cab. Try bypassing the cab lock (with the AxeFX into FRFR) to hear the high-end junk you don't want.

Yeah true, that's why I actually put bandpass in parens, because you would still want to adjust the hi cut. I would think you wouldn't really want any lows in there at all though, which is I guess my point. Clearly I'm wrong though or Cliff would have done it that way, just trying to learn

 

[chase]

[quote="GM Arts":1t2hm04s]No, you definitely want to filter out highs if you're emulating a cab.

Well, if you're "emulating a cab," you really want an IR that does a good job of "emulating a cab." Then you won't need to play games with a parallel dry signal. I've personally never found such a trick necessary. Had I ever wanted to try it, the means to do so have been there all along.[/quote:1t2hm04s]

It's not unusual for bass sounds to be a mix of DI and mic'ed cab, though, so I could see this being useful for that kind of sound. I haven't explored the air parameter yet, so I don't know how well it would actually work for that.

The biggest problem with the existing method (parallel dry signal) is that there are two controls to adjust (cab level and dry level), rather than a single balance. I wish the Mixer block had a "crossfader" mode that would mix two separate signals on opposite equal-power curves; I can just set up my faderbox to control both levels at the same time in opposite directions, but it'd be nice to be able to do that within the Axe.

 

[GM Arts]

One thing I found interesting and useful when dabbling with a parallel low pass filter is the way it evens out the repsonse of the cab over the bass and mid ranges. This is good for some of the extreme sounding cabs, but not so good if you over-use it, because it takes away the character of the cab model.

I've done this in the past by blending stereo cabs where one of the models is Jay's excellent 2x12 on-axis model (I think that's the one), which has a reasonably flat response. This does the same thing by eveneing out some extreme cab responses without adding unnecessary highs.

The trouble with these approaches is there's no guarantee it will work with all cabs if there are "unwanted" phase differences where the combination of the 2 signals sounds nothing like a blend of them should sound. That's why I think the built-in AIR approach is better, where I assume that's all taken care of.