Satch's book, a thought on amp in the room. A short story.

FPFL

Experienced
Listening to Joe Satriani's great audiobook "Strange Beautiful Music" had me thinking my own start with guitar playing. Admittedly I'm a bit younger than Joe, but not a kid at 48 today. Some lessons are timeless, as he talks about his hero Hendrix, his first gear, and his ideas about what "Good" sounded like. Joe was my Hendrix! He was "Not of this Earth" to me - pun intended for those that remember! : )

I realized my own journey had started with initial surprise and disappointment that guitar amps sounding little like the recordings I'd been listening to on the radio. (Do any of you have this memory? That first probably not great amp or the first music store experience where a big tube amp spat at you like an angry animal?)

This was when 80's FM radio was what streaming is today, the primary medium for folks to hear music. I was lucky to live in greater Boston with college and big rock channels all having experimental, off hours shows where you could hear people like Satriani before he broke with Surfing.

Buying music was expensive for a kid then! Instruments were insane amounts of money. All that said, I expected electric guitars to sound like the did on recordings. They only sorta did. Why? Keyboards sounded the same I noticed. Drums sounded better mixed (why are these cymbals so freaking loud? some things never change -smile- ) but mostly the same, guitars sounded regrettably different to me. This was vexing - and ironically the opposite of what some people now chase with amp in the room!

I learned to live with how amps sounded - often harsher and of course so very directional. I learned about "beaming" and how to deal with it. I learned the then still living blues hero SRV put heavy tape inside the grill cloth of his Fender amps! As a young player this made a ton of sense to me.

In time all the wrestling with gear became normal. I stopped thinking of it as disappointing. It simply was how it was. I next learned that an amp that sounded like crap on its own often sounded good in a mix, thus the attack and often harsh brightness of a real Marshall made sense in a live, loud band like I would soon be playing in.

Now we've come full circle. You can get "amp in the room" or mastered guitar sounds, you can practice with a metronome like I did, or mixes that are more polished than actual records from the 80s and 90s and everything in-between.

Does it make sense to still be obsessing over amp in the room? Maybe but not definitely. I don't care anymore. I was trending that way, and this cemented it for me. Its not b/c I can't have it, I already had it.

Ask yourself what Joe got me to think about. "What did I want when I started" versus what I learned to accept and what become normal. Maybe they aren't the same and 18 year old me would be slapping older me on the head today. : )

As always do what makes you happy, and make music!
 
First time I played through a JCM800 and a Dual Rec I was so confused, I know exactly what you’re saying. Then getting in my first band, playing live, watching the videos after and trying to figure out why I couldn’t be heard or sounded like a pile of ass. Then recording for the first time and learning that your home-jammin’ tone isn’t the best for the studio and your live tone is closer but still not there. What also blew me away was the difference in how different brands felt to play. Total different feeling between a Marshall and a Mesa.

This is also why I‘m always referencing Metallica’s Black Album isolated guitar tracks. Huge album and some rather thin guitars in comparison to how they come across on the album.

It’s similar with drums in the context of the Black Album as well. He used a Gretsch kit on it, something you wouldn’t normally expect would have created one of the biggest metal sounding drum sounds ever recorded when Lars was using Tama Granstars for years before. There’s a VST available called The Black Album drums, they rented the exact kit Lars used (the Drum Dr in LA owns it, anyone can rent it), got one of the assistant engineers on TBA, rented One On One (it was something different at the time) and recreated the TBA drum sound. You can also remove all the EQ, compression, reverb and gates and it’s a great sounding kit, but nothing you’d expect to be the one that made that album.

I imagine the younger generation who is starting off with plugins or modelers and eventually play through an amp are going to have a bit of that WTF? Where can I tweak the negative feedback?
 
I remember trying a half stack for the first time at stage volume and it was just squealing and making noise because I didn’t know how to control the guitar and gain. It’s truly a great experience and feeling, but yeah, I can’t do a gig anywhere these days and have that kind of volume, even at “rock bars.” A 1x12 combo is still too loud.

Real, loud amps are definitely a force to be reckoned with, and habits can die hard with some people. But for me at least, to be able to play music live, I need to adapt to the venue. It’s not like the old days where you could just turn up. Modeling has definitely allowed me to get the tones I enjoy at the volumes venues will tolerate, and still sound and feel good.

A well-known local player here had a headline gig and my band opened for him. During sound check, he turned his half stack up and of course it sounded great, but the venue managers told him to turn down. He hated it. Couldn’t play right, he said.

When he played the gig, after the first song, he asked the crowd “do you mind if I turn up?” And of course they said do it! So he did. And then the venue managers ran to the sound board and told them to turn off his guitar. They did, but the amp was still loud enough to fill the room. Then they stopped the show. He was pissed! They had a talk with him, and he brought out an acoustic and finished the show because he couldn’t get the tone he needed with the amp turned down to the levels they wanted.

That’s just how it is these days in many venues.
 
Although I loved playing loud at the time, honestly the above story makes me think the guitarist was a bit of a &&&**

I gigged late 80s/early 90s, full Marshall Jubilee stack, the other guitarist - JCM800 stack, just playing pubs here in the UK

Back then, any pub gig would mean seriously ringing ears, as a player or audience member - as the latter, you'd likely lose your voice from shouting to get served at the bar.

I mean it was fun and all, but that's hearing damaging levels - and the reasons for my tinnitus today, maybe some bars have gone too far the other way, but if musicians by now haven't realised that - well..

Chris is exactly right, adapt to the venue - it's their call, once in a while I still hire a rehearsal space and crank it, it's a great feeling - but it's not what the market is demanding, and I actually think it's a good thing.

Remember Marshall stacks were created largely because venues got bigger and there were no decent PAs - that's changed, a good PA, a half decent sound guy - and modellers or small amps are great, for me it would be the modeller all day, IF there's monitoring - no monitors and the amp might win, for some gigs
 
I am 55 years old, playing since I was 15. I had a long experience with the all-time favorite amps and stacks, and I have to say that they all did sound like crap to my ears. They did never sound like what I heard on my favorite recordings. If that is what people refers as "Amp in the room", then that is not for me.

I was unhappy with my sound until I moved to modeling and FRFR. Starting with the Roland VG-8, Art SGX2000, Boss GX-700, Marshall JMP-1, Boss GT-Pro, Egnater M4, Tri-Axis... (long list of gear and huge refrigerators) up to the Axe-FX Standard, Ultra, II, III

Real amps, either in the room or a stage, are not for me. I do not need a sonic shockwave moving my pants and balls and destroying my tympanic membranes in order to enjoy playing guitar, I prefer the "as recorded in a great mix" tone, at a pleasant volume. And that is exactly what the Axe-FX III provides without any effort, as far as your have a good monitoring system.
 
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I remember trying a half stack for the first time at stage volume and it was just squealing and making noise because I didn’t know how to control the guitar and gain. It’s truly a great experience and feeling, but yeah, I can’t do a gig anywhere these days and have that kind of volume, even at “rock bars.” A 1x12 combo is still too loud.

Real, loud amps are definitely a force to be reckoned with, and habits can die hard with some people. But for me at least, to be able to play music live, I need to adapt to the venue. It’s not like the old days where you could just turn up. Modeling has definitely allowed me to get the tones I enjoy at the volumes venues will tolerate, and still sound and feel good.

A well-known local player here had a headline gig and my band opened for him. During sound check, he turned his half stack up and of course it sounded great, but the venue managers told him to turn down. He hated it. Couldn’t play right, he said.

When he played the gig, after the first song, he asked the crowd “do you mind if I turn up?” And of course they said do it! So he did. And then the venue managers ran to the sound board and told them to turn off his guitar. They did, but the amp was still loud enough to fill the room. Then they stopped the show. He was pissed! They had a talk with him, and he brought out an acoustic and finished the show because he couldn’t get the tone he needed with the amp turned down to the levels they wanted.

That’s just how it is these days in many venues.
I know a few of those dinosaurs myself. Even young ones. They all seem to worship at the temple of the Almighty Tube Amp!

Ironically they can get that tone though live on stage with that 100w tube head, if they would only use something like a 2 Notes Torpedo Capture to send that glorious amptone via an IR to the FOH and use the output level to bring down their stage volume to something more appropriate for a small venue. But I reckon they would then complain that its still to soft to sound good anyway.

As for the OP, I don't give a rat's ass about amp in the room sound. Whenever somebody complains about it on the forums I go doesn't it sound good coming from your monitors or headphone? I also find it weird that people those people want to sound like their favorite artist on album X, when that is a miked up guitar sound going through studio trickery with an amp in the room. It's never going to sound the same sitting somewhere in the room as when its a mic placed a mere inch from the speaker cloth at the magic spot.
 
Yep, been there, done that. I never got along with the whole amp in the room thing. Having to have a slanted 4x12 just so I could hear myself, or using some kind of tilting stand if I wanted to get by with a 2x12. I'm also not a fan of high volume.

The attitude of "it has to be a 100+ watt tube amp through a 4x12 at such a high volume, that the pant legs flap in the wind!" seems cave man to me.
 
I can relate a lot to what you're saying. I always wanted those tones I heard on the albums, but I could never get anything close to it from the amps that were available to me as a kid. When I eventually got to try out Marshall amps and the like, they always seemed to bright and loud etc. Now that I have the Axe-FX 3 to generate all these tones and more, it's exactly what I've always wanted. Some times I buy an amp just because I feel like I should be playing real amps like a "real" guitar player, but the truth is I just don't miss guitar amps. The last great guitar amp I had was a Carr Mercury V, which sounds absolutely killer and can do a whole bunch of tones, but I'd never sell my Axe 3 and go back.
 
Love mic'd cab tones from modellers/plugins as they sound closer to the recorded tones in my head from decades of recorded/mic'd up music listening as a non- guitar player (only started playing in my mid 40s - still mostly just a basement player at 60). Having said that, and apart from studio monitors and fr cabs, I have a pair of nice mesa 112 ported cabs with a clean p.a. that I fire up regularly with Axefx amp block to try and find an AITR tone I like - still searching as I still find the tones harsh and thin but I keep this gear as I'd like to be able to enjoy both modes if I can possibly get some AITR tones dialed in some day.
 
When i started, i didnt know about amp brands, tube vs digital vs solid state, speaker sizes, cab sizes or anything. I knew I liked distortion and that i wanted to play my own music on stage.

I now know what I like the most and what i like to experiment with, so Im building on that.

The hard part now isnt finding a tone I like, it's 100% writing my own music. I like bouncing ideas off people and jamming them out, so Im in brand new territory.
 
Be that as it may, IMO the best "Satriani" tone is on his self-titled album, which was recorded mostly with a full band and cranked amps in the room. Also, some of his earlier tones are pretty dubious by today's standards, and they were obsessed over to hell and back in the studio. We only perceive them as "classic" because they're, well, classic, not because they're super good or anything.

And yes, for a lot of cabs (and IRs) "great tone isolated" means "shitty tone in the mix". Not for all though. I've dialed my UA OX such that I get great tone both ways out of at least three tube amps: Mesa Mark V, Soldano SLO, and Carvin Legacy. I got Mark V sound dead on to Petrucci isolated tracks (perhaps a tad less low end), and Carvin very similar to Vai's tone, which is what I was aiming for. If you look at some studio videos recorded by Vai, you'll see that his tone sounds great both in the room and in the mix as well, from which I concluded this is doable.

I don't pretend to understand how it all works, but it does work. Now I wish I could also make it sound/feel great in headphones. I'm currently using Adam A7 studio monitors, which is not ideal past midnight.
 
Also, some of his earlier tones are pretty dubious by today's standards, and they were obsessed over to hell and back in the studio.
The first couple albums were heavily tweaked to make them not sound like the typical guitar sounds or classics (of that time).

So, they were "dubious" even during that time... But intentionally so.

Joe has talked about this in interviews before.
 
Give me Cool #9. Tones and playing, that song is just So Cool. Still probably my favorite of his, though I confess I haven't done a deep dive on everything.
 
I hear you, OP.

I also never particularly liked the sound of a guitar amp on it's own.
Especially that PoS Peavey "Rage 15" I started with 27 years ago.

I think that's why I'm so comfortable with the modeling ecosphere. I much prefer the "finished" recorded tone of a mic'ed amp/cab. Polished.

Do not see the point of chasing the AITR with a modeling rig, especially in the days of IEMs, but there are obviously guys who put it on a pedestal.
 
Be that as it may, IMO the best "Satriani" tone is on his self-titled album, which was recorded mostly with a full band and cranked amps in the room. Also, some of his earlier tones are pretty dubious by today's standards, and they were obsessed over to hell and back in the studio. We only perceive them as "classic" because they're, well, classic, not because they're super good or anything.

And yes, for a lot of cabs (and IRs) "great tone isolated" means "shitty tone in the mix". Not for all though. I've dialed my UA OX such that I get great tone both ways out of at least three tube amps: Mesa Mark V, Soldano SLO, and Carvin Legacy. I got Mark V sound dead on to Petrucci isolated tracks (perhaps a tad less low end), and Carvin very similar to Vai's tone, which is what I was aiming for. If you look at some studio videos recorded by Vai, you'll see that his tone sounds great both in the room and in the mix as well, from which I concluded this is doable.

I don't pretend to understand how it all works, but it does work. Now I wish I could also make it sound/feel great in headphones. I'm currently using Adam A7 studio monitors, which is not ideal past midnight.

Headphones can't feel great IMO. It's neither you nor their fault. It's one step too disconnected from the environment. Even quiet monitors have some room vibe to coax your brain into that happy 3D feeling and ambience.

The Boss Katana headphones are getting there with the distance from amp / angle from amp / room modeling idea (which is an awesome idea) but they are regrettably only able to do this for Katana sounds... which while workable solid state sounds are hardly transcendental like the Fractal code can be.
 
I still play with a 412 and poweramp for me and FRFR to FOH. The great thing about the AxeFX is you can really dial in the monitor and amp mix where you are enveloped in raw amp tone. With bar gigs the spacing between your amp and monitor is always a concern but when it is right it is glorious alive and breathing. The drums are always the deciding factor on how loud I need it and I try to limit my ear exposure but damn it is magical when it all comes together.
 
Give me Cool #9. Tones and playing, that song is just So Cool. Still probably my favorite of his, though I confess I haven't done a deep dive on everything.
That's a great one... That whole album is very "live / raw" album.

My favorite Satch track is Always With Me, Always With You... But I'm a sucker for a ballad!

Cool #9 is definitely a favorite, too. He has so many great tunes...

His more recent albums have explored a lot more stylistic range.
 
Satch to me is a victim of his own success. Early on he figured out a great formula for how to write songs a certain way, and he stuck to that even after a lot of his fans moved on. And it’s a great formula, nothing wrong with it, I’d give my left nut to write like that, but he’s competing with his younger self, and that just doesn’t work. You gotta change to avoid that. Yngwie has the same problem.
 
Satch to me is a victim of his own success. Early on he figured out a great formula for how to write songs a certain way, and he stuck to that even after a lot of his fans moved on. And it’s a great formula, nothing wrong with it, I’d give my left nut to write like that, but he’s competing with his younger self, and that just doesn’t work. You gotta change to avoid that. Yngwie has the same problem.
I'm guessing you haven't listened to his last 4-5 albums? Starting from Professor Satchifunkilus...

There's a lot more diversity than the period that preceded it. I think there was a lot of change.

I've said before that for a while there I felt like he was phoning it in... Everything sounded like a retread to my ears.
 
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