Red Sound Elis8 FRFR Review and MF 10 Comparision

Rex said:
In general, larger speakers are more likely to flub out than smaller speakers.
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I wonder if that's entirely accurate. Larger speakers (all other things being equal) ought to find it easier to reproduce low frequencies. When I think of "flubbing out," I kind of equate that with how on some Fenders the speaker tries to reproduce low frequencies (neck pickup, high volume) but starts to physically distort because it just can't do it.

I wonder if a lot of what leads to the perception here is because designers of cabinets with smaller drivers put in a low-cut filter to prevent the speaker from even really trying to reproduce those lows, and we hear that as 'a good thing' because it is masking too much bass in our output signal anyway?

I recently went through all my main presets and in the cab block put a 6dB/octave filter on the bass side set to 333Hz...(easier to type, and a starting point based on my experience transferring to larger systems with subs), then modified it a bit as needed. But through my studio monitors and my EV's, I can still get a pretty full sound without feeling like I'm stepping into the bassist's end of the swimming pool.
 
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Jtroop said:
Let us know how you like them when you get a chance.
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First impressions highly positive. The form factor is damn-near perfect. I've always tried to optimize my load-in/load-out to be as painless as possible and these fit the bill. I will be the first to admit that when someone mentions "dark" I usually get more intrigued, as I really don't like a lot of top end sheen on things. For whatever reason I'm really sensitive to ice pick highs, and often a PA cab will give that, especially with acoustic guitar. Plugged the cab in, angled it back and dialed up some clean patches as that's what I'm gigging these days on guitar (solo stuff, acoustic guitar and archtop for jazz-adjacent). Very happy - none of the sheen that I was getting from the K8 (less of an issue on the 30M, but still there). Highs were plenty well represented with the acoustic and the jazz boxes sounded great. Dialed up some reference dirty tones (Dirty Shirley and Machine Gun are two favs). Fantastic. I've found that Machine Gun is a bit of a torture device for a full range system and it can sound kinda edgy and plastic. But not with the Elis.8.

I'll gig it tomorrow - typically I would just run vocals and guitar through either my DeCapo or 30M but this improves the guitar sound enough - and it is small/light enough - that I'll bring it along. Live performance is always my benchmark but turning it up in the home studio I didn't get any weird things happening. Look forward to them getting the passive cabs back in stock, though I'm not sure if/when I'll go stereo as I'm still messing with looper solutions. I do not care for the internal looper, and my current solution is mono. Always something...
 
greiswig said:
I wonder if that's entirely accurate. Larger speakers (all other things being equal) ought to find it easier to reproduce low frequencies. When I think of "flubbing out," I kind of equate that with how on some Fenders the speaker tries to reproduce low frequencies (neck pickup, high volume) but starts to physically distort because it just can't do it.

I wonder if a lot of what leads to the perception here is because designers of cabinets with smaller drivers put in a low-cut filter to prevent the speaker from even really trying to reproduce those lows, and we hear that as 'a good thing' because it is masking too much bass in our output signal anyway?

I recently went through all my main presets and in the cab block put a 6dB/octave filter on the bass side set to 333Hz...(easier to type, and a starting point based on my experience transferring to larger systems with subs), then modified it a bit as needed. But through my studio monitors and my EV's, I can still get a pretty full sound without feeling like I'm stepping into the bassist's end of the swimming pool.
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To me, “flubbing out” happens when there’s too much resonance, or too much bass for the room you’re in. When aggressive response prevents tight reproduction of what the bass is actually doing. It’s not a distortion thing.
 
Rex said:
To me, “flubbing out” happens when there’s too much resonance, or too much bass for the room you’re in. When aggressive response prevents tight reproduction of what the bass is actually doing. It’s not a distortion thing.
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Words are hard!!!

To me, flubbing is about distortion, in the low end, and the resulting lack of clarity and punch down there.

Boominess is about resonance, in the cab and/or the room, makes for a different kind of low end vagueness, low notes ringing too long.

But that's just me, maybe.
 
Rex said:
To me, “flubbing out” happens when there’s too much resonance, or too much bass for the room you’re in. When aggressive response prevents tight reproduction of what the bass is actually doing. It’s not a distortion thing.
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Interesting. OK, but if that is the effect you're talking about, I'd still say it should have little to do with the driver size and more to do with how much bass you're actually feeding into the room, how the speaker's resonant frequencies interact with room resonances, etc. If a smaller driver avoids exciting a room mode because it isn't reproducing those frequencies well, and a larger driver can, to me that still means it's more about the room than the driver.
 
greiswig said:
...If a smaller driver avoids exciting a room mode because it isn't reproducing those frequencies well, and a larger driver can, to me that still means it's more about the room than the driver.
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True. But it also means that the smaller driver is less prone to flubbing out, which was my premise. :)
 
Gigged the FM3 and Elis yesterday, first time for both pieces of gear. This venue is a wine bar, somewhat cavernous room in total but the seating area is closed off by stacks of wine barrels so I’m not having to fill the whole thing. Solo show, playing dobro or guitar (this time archtop) and singing. I ran vocals into my DeCapo which has two channels and uses a concentric 8” speaker. I had set up presets on the FM3 for dobro as well as a relatively clean guitar preset. I ran Chan 1 out to the Elis and angled it a bit behind and to my right. I ran just a bit of Chan 2 into the effects return of the DeCapo just to give some guitar in that speaker, and that was to my left side.

All good reports from the crowd. My wife said the guitar sounded harsh on one song, but otherwise good. Dobro sounded fantastic, especially with some harmonic trem (one of the scenes). Really liking the Elis FM3 combo, and finally wrapping my head around programming the FM3. Look forward to adding a passive Elis as carrying two isn’t much different than carrying one.
 
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Randalljax said:
Did you find that the Ellis lows stayed tight enough w the 8speaker
If you were using higher gain like recto having the 8s flub out with the lows or get muddy would be my biggest concern
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Like @Rex said, larger speakers are more likely to flub out than smaller. The 8” speakers in the ELIS.8 are very well matched to a guitar’s frequency range.
 
purefreedomrevolution said:
Anyone see this



Have anyone compared MF10 active with a passive MF10 OR two Elis8 actives in stereo?
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A passive MF10 is the same as the active, the only difference is the active has the stereo amplifier internally mounted which powers both cabinets. They sound the same.

“MF” is @Marco Fanton who uses both the MF10 and the ELIS.8. Watch his videos where he demonstrates them to get an idea of their sound.
 
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gioevo11 said:
Is there ever a time when a pair of mf10s would be too much speaker for the space? Like a home studio about 300 sq ft?
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That's crazy. I own the RS Ellis 8's (pair) and I have it on minimal volume and it blows my studio down. In fact I have to keep the speakers a good 8 feet apart just to avoid loudspeaker inteference (There was a better term but I can't recall it right now).

Even if you set the Elis 8 to volume 5 , I only need to put my AX8 output 1 knob quarter of the way up.. In other words 25%. So 25% of 5 is slightly over 1. So the actual volume I'm using the RS Elis 8 at which is blaring loud in my studio is literally between 1-1.5.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
Maybe “reinforcement”?
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No. You had thought of the word before if I recall. It's when the speakers are too close together and there is a screechy noise regardless what output the guitar volume is on. Speaker screech or something like that.. What was it? I had this problem. In the end I move the speakes 8 feet apart and had them facing forwards (not inwards) and even then I don't play metallica because the speaker screech with that is unbearable.

The speaker screech is something that only pertains to frfr units. Remember now? :)
 
dsouza said:
No. You had thought of the word before if I recall. It's when the speakers are too close together and there is a screechy noise regardless what output the guitar volume is on. Speaker screech or something like that.. What was it? I had this problem. In the end I move the speakes 8 feet apart and had them facing forwards (not inwards) and even then I don't play metallica because the speaker screech with that is unbearable.

The speaker screech is something that only pertains to frfr units. Remember now? :)
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"Tweeter squeal." It's not from putting the speakers too close together. It's from having your guitar's pickup too close to a tweeter. If you get a screechy noise from putting your speakers close together, your system is... weird. :)
 
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Rex said:
"Tweeter squeal." It's not from putting the speakers too close together. It's from having your guitar's pickup too clos e to a tweeter. If you get a screechy noise from putting your speakers close together, your system is... weird. :)
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Yes that's what it's called. Indirectly putting my speakers further apart cause the distance between pickups and tweeter to be increased thereby reducing squeal. But your right the reason is not because the speakers are far apart , its the pups to the tweeter. Thanks for clearing that up!
 
dsouza said:
there is a screechy noise regardless what output the guitar volume is on. Speaker screech or something like that
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I have never heard of speakers causing a problem like that by being too close together. It seems to me that flying arrays and Bose speakers would have a really big problem if so.

A microphone that is too close so it’s picking up the sound from the speaker can result in feedback, or a guitar pickup that is close to the speaker coils can pick up the magnetic fields resulting in feedback. For the later you can get “tweeter squeal”, but that has nothing to do with speakers in close proximity to each other.

What does happen when speakers are packed closely together is the lower notes from each speaker begin reinforcing each other. The diameter of the speaker and the frequency of the note causes it, and flying arrays, and Bose speakers, rely on it.
 
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