"Real amps just have something modelers can't replicate"

Imo, one way the Fractal amp models have evolved over the years is that they've become much easier to dial in + with just the basic controls. It's interesting that frustration with option paralysis is often expressed by folks who seem to be needlessly delving into advanced parm tweaks (many of which require some significant amp circuit design knowledge to operate intelligently imo). Now, it's really as easy, or difficult, as one wants to make it.
 
marsonic said:
Yeah....it definitely can be. There's a part of me that think GAS actually comes from something very much like Option Paralysis....you hear something cool, you wonder if you actually want it, you buy it, it doesn't solve all your problems, and you do it again. When you have all the options a click/turn/block away....it happens more often. At least it doesn't cost money.

Choosing to limit yourself can be a very good thing. And, I think that's why I came to my general revelation about GAS - the "better" I am at any given thing, the less I care about gear once it does what I need and is "good enough" (however high that bar is - it might need to be one of the best in the world, or it might just need to tick the box, or anything in-between).

I play with other amp models sometimes, and I've changed my cab a handful of times. But, The Fractals would still be worth it to me if they had exactly one amp model - as long as it was the right one. I might use 2-3% of what a Fractal can do. I just really love that 2-3%.

Mastering is kinda the same way. It's been almost a year since I've bought anything. There's literally one plugin I kinda want to try, but it's just a different interface on something I can already do. So...meh. I'm also still on RX 10. I think I'm going to wait and see what's new in 12. 11 isn't enough of an upgrade for me to care. Etc..

DJing....same thing. I've upgraded software, but my gear hasn't changed in over 10 years. It still does everything I want to do the way I want to do it. Heck, my mixer was discontinued in 2015, IIRC. There's literally one product in the entire DJ market that's been released in the last 10 years that I might think about at some point...other than a new computer when mine won't do what I need anymore, of course.



I mean....nothing is actually forcing you to do that. You're choosing to do it. Having options doesn't mean you have to use them.

I'm pretty sure that on my amp, I literally just use the first page and the output compressor (because I exclusively play through IEMs with no room sound).
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unix-guy said:
100% this.

Set the Axe Fx to Authentic mode. Use the Tone page. Exactly the same as a real amp.
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I think the whole discussion about modellers versus profilers comes into the picture here.

For example, I used to own a Kemper, and everyone was swearing that profiles were the best thing since sliced bread. I went down that route for almost 10 years and over the course of four Profilers.

In the end, I realised that I actually preferred to be able to create my own sounds rather than what was a "good sound" based on someone else's ears.

In that regard, I love the option of being able to tweak, tweak and tweak some more till I get the sound I'm looking for. That's why I'm getting an FXIII again after going the QC route for a while.

An example of how this could just be the power amp section, the speaker curves and negative feedback for an amp I'm dialling in. These are just three settings, but you can go deep, really deep into getting the right setting. It's not like infinite settings, but it's pretty damn close.

And then, the next day, you're like, "What was I thinking"?

The same goes with IRs, and I am now a big fan of DynIRs for making that process of selecting a good speaker much easier.

Sure, I could just stick to basic settings and get by. Heck, with the Axe FXIII, you don't even have to dial in anything. Just load the amp and play, this black box of sorts is designed that way.

But I love the idea of getting this sound in my head out into the real world. You could call it tone-chasing. I'm not forced into it, I just do it because I am always looking to squeeze out that 1 per cent that I want from the Axe.
 
nightlight said:
But I love the idea of getting this sound in my head out into the real world. You could call it tone-chasing. I'm not forced into it, I just do it because I am always looking to squeeze out that 1 per cent that I want from the Axe.
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That's also completely valid. But, if you find yourself chasing your tail on it...IMHO the solution is to go back to basics.

It's that way in just about everything I do.

I really do enjoy knowing/understanding enough about all the things to try out whatever hair-brained ideas I have. But, after a little while of "that's cool", I genuinely want to go back to basics the vast majority of the time.
 
marsonic said:
That's also completely valid. But, if you find yourself chasing your tail on it...IMHO the solution is to go back to basics.

It's that way in just about everything I do.

I really do enjoy knowing/understanding enough about all the things to try out whatever hair-brained ideas I have. But, after a little while of "that's cool", I genuinely want to go back to basics the vast majority of the time.
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Can't disagree with that. But in my own limited experience, there's a lot to be gained in tonal terms from experimenting with the deeper parameters and learning how to use them.

A good analogy would be overclocking for gaming. Some people might never ramp up frequency because it isn't always necessary. But in competitive gaming, it might make ample sense for a smoother experience.

I just came off a Quad Cortex and all the controls you have are largely on a single page. And while that might work to a certain sub-group of users, in my case, I always wished there was a depth control on the Soldano model.

It really helps to dial that amp in imo, but since the original amp didn't have it, the model doesn't either.

And that's what I like about the Axe FXIII. It takes the real world amp and you can go from there to perfect it using the more complicated parameters.
 
axes said:
I've realized I need my amps to be happy just as much as I need my Axe to be happy. Sometimes I enjoy my amps, sometimes I enjoy the Axe, sometimes I hate both of them when I can't figure out how to get to the tone I'm after. One thing's for certain, though: at this point the Axe is every bit as good as an amp is.
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Going to back the OG Harmony Central forums in the mid 90s (my god I'm getting old...) I remember there was a list of observations made by one of the members that constantly circulated, which each point ending with "and that's just the way it is". Two that I remember were something like "Modelers will get better. They will approach or eventually exceed the tonal quality and feel of tube amps. They will continually get better and cheaper. And that's just the way it is" and "Nobody in the audience really cares about your tone. They're all watching the singer, anyway. And that's just how it is". Point being, yeah, all the nuance and feel and mojo are great, but as long as it's good enough in a mix for people to listen, everything is going great.

I look at it like coffee or cigars (from my experience) - I can't taste the hints of cinnamon or chocolate or hazelnut, I just know it's great, ok, or gross. But there is something about those speakers moving that air, no doubt.
 
Deadlifts_n_Riffs said:
as long as it's good enough
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I kinda live by that, just probably not in the way most people think. "Good enough" means good enough. It's not dismissive, and it doesn't mean you're settling.

The first time I heard it used in a positive way, it was an Olympic team coach. Striving for perfection lead to failures. Striving for good enough lead to gold medals.

....and that's just the way it is.
 
I think both sides of this discussion are correct. First, everyone has their own preferences and the way they hear things.
This could be the visual stimulation and feeling of having a full back line consisting of 12-foot-tall Marshall cabinets and glowing jewels from their heads. Many of us older Rockers, when we were kids, grew up in total awe of these stages when we attended concerts, listening to and watching our heroes perform.
You gotta admit it looked very cool. Funny, in many cases, the cabinets were mostly empty with no speakers, but we didn't know that.
I remember playing a gig once when we brought in a PA that was perfect for the venue; however, the owner took me aside and said that the PA looked too small, and if we wanted to be rebooked, we should add more. So I added twice the PA at extra expense to the band. It was really an expensive, needless reason for getting a larger PA setup.
What I am saying is that many of us were conditioned, learning our craft, that we need large amps and PAs to play our shows.
When arrays first came out, I know that there were many people who doubted if they would work well.
The transition from analog to digital front-of-house and monitor boards still has its non-adopters. Even the in-ear versus traditional wedge monitors is an ongoing personal choice.
Myself, I love the sounds of the Fractal Units.
I also love the sound of the amp in the room.
Many of us practice our instruments alone without a PA setup .
That feeling and sound of sitting near a real amp in the room is missing in many patches. I understand this is intentional and necessary for many of us some of the time.
One can always tweak presets to get that sound.
I think it would be a great addition and would attract many more customers ,
If the presets included a toggle button to change all of the presets from the mic'd amp sound to an amp in the room sound, for practice or for smaller acts that do not mic their guitar amps or if going though a PFRC
and a setting that would better accommodate the use of a real amp and speakers to avoid This may very well reduce the number of conflicting opinions about real versus virtual amps. Just a thought, however, I don't think anyone is wrong here in this thread. Some like fish, some like chicken, no bames .
 
Deadlifts_n_Riffs said:
Point being, yeah, all the nuance and feel and mojo are great, but as long as it's good enough in a mix for people to listen, everything is going great.
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I don't agree with this argument of "nobody in the audience cares".

People like us are often in the audience and we DO care.

Further, I use the gear I use to make ME happy as the first goal. If I sound good to myself, I perform better. If I perform better, the audience definitely will notice.
 
Slightly off topic, but: does anyone know if the site bogneramp.com is really the official Bogner website? Their site has been broken for several years now but bogneramp.com pulls up an official looking site. I just want to be sure it is Bogner, and not a site that is malicious.
I love my Fractal but am looking for another tube amp also and am interested in the Bogner Ecstasy.
 
IME you need volume and speaker/guitar interaction, with either a modeler or tube amp, to get "the proper vibe" and feel, etc., and that's where the real differences start to "blur" between the two.

With headphones or speakers playing quietly (where that all important guitar/speaker interaction is missing) a lot of the "experience" is gone and/or is just different...with either an amp or a modeler. That dynamic eco-system/feedback loop is "The Water Of Life" heh.

And on recordings or FOH? IMO that's a moot point and has been for years...either method is indistinguishable to the listener.
 
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I AB'ed both my Super Reverb and my Mk IV with the Axe FX III and the amp simulation is spot on. For the lead channel on the Mark IV to match I had to reduce the power tube bias a bit.

What makes the physical amp sound special to me is the speakers vs a simulated miked speaker. That's where the magic is and that's why I play my Tone King almost exclusively at the moment.
 
unix-guy said:
I don't agree with this argument of "nobody in the audience cares".

People like us are often in the audience and we DO care.

Further, I use the gear I use to make ME happy as the first goal. If I sound good to myself, I perform better. If I perform better, the audience definitely will notice.
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You’re that mother trucker that stands in the corner with your arms crossed and a frown on your face, aren’t you!
 
RLD said:
Yeah...I think it's better said as "they can't tell the difference" between an amp or modeling.
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That is 100% correct. They either like what they’re hearing overall (song selection, musical presentation, stage presence, etc), or they don’t. Very few of them are musicians.
 
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