Quick question: new to Solid State

K

krcassid

Inspired
I am about to hook up my Bryston 4BSST to 2 2 X 12s each with 2 X EVM-12L. I was using a Mesa 2:90 before. I understand that the Bryston has no "impedance" issues but I want to make this rig work as well as it can and not blow anything up (the Bryston has no volume control). Currently, my cabs are wired with a switch that allows me to go series/ parallel (so 4 or 16 ohms w/ 2 8 ohm EVs).

What is the best way to hook up the Bryston? As I understand it, it delivers 250w/ channel into 8 ohms, 400w into 4 ohms. So, I'm guessing that, if I run cabs at 16 ohms, I'm at < 200, safe for EVs with Bryston maxed? But, does the Bryston care? Do the EVs? Is running cabs at 16 ohms "sonically" the same as running at 4 or 8, just less power?

Sorry to sound dumb. I'm a tube and FRFR guy so this is my 1st foray into SS.

Thx!
 
Hi-fi stereo amps are generally designed to be presented with 4-8 ohms per channel. At 16 ohms stereo, the Bryston may "care" eventually but, short term, it shouldn't be a problem. In the meantime, you will likely have less headroom, dynamics and lower output. If you're presenting a +\- 16 ohm load, you might want to consider running the Bryston in bridged mono mode. Either way, either way, it should be interesting.
 
Thanks! I'd really prefer not to put my Bryston at risk, even long term. If 16 might do this, this leaves me only 4. I can't bridge because I'm running stereo. I do have 2 Brystons but, bridged, we're talking 800w into 4 ohms. If I run unbridged at 4, Bryston is at 400w. Now, I've got 2 EVMs in each cab and they are 200w. So, I should be able to hit them with 400w at 4 ohms if I watch my input levels carefully, right? I realize I'm on the edge. But, given that I rarely turned the Mesa 2:90 up past 1/2, I should be "safe" as long as I keep my input levels to the Bryston reasonable and don't do anything too stupid :(

FWIW: I ran 2 of my 70s Hiwatt DR103s thru the 2 EVM cabs last night. It was GLORIOUS! WAY better than the EV/ Gold combo. So, given that the Hiwatts are about as clean as guitar amps get, this is a good sign for the Axe/ Bryston. Now, I just need the right cables to connect Axe to Bryston (XLR/ XLR line level) and Bryston to cabs (binding post to TS)
 
Can't really add any factual stuff here.
My cabs are 1 X 12 @8ohms.
I don't think you can run a Bryston in bridged mode safely into anything except for an 8ohm load, but I could be wrong.
I have two 2B LP Pros.
I usually run one in bridged mode for 200watts into 8ohms.
For stereo gigs I'd use them both, bridged as well.

In stereo I know that 8ohm or 4ohm loads are acceptable.
If I was using a 16ohm cab I'd probably contact Bryston 1st.

If the OP had bought four 4ohm 12Ls (assuming that's even possible) for his 2 cabs then he'd have no worries.
 
But, if I run the Bryston into 4, that's 400w,/ channel, exactly the max the 2 Evs in each cab will handle, right? 2 x 200w? I would think it's a perfect match at 4 ohms as long as I don't get crazy and turn it up max (which would be insane loud). Even 200w thru 2 Evms is going to be crazy loud, right? The cabs would be set to series, 2 8 ohm Eva's = 4, power handing 400w. Bryson into 4 ohms is 400w/ channel

I'm safe here, right?
 
I think you'd probably go deaf before you could blow a 12L from playing with too much power/level.
Hi power is only an issue for the driver if the amp is driven into clipping or if it's played real loud for a real long duration.
But I could be wrong.
 
Set your cabs for four ohms and don't worry, it'll be fine. just make sure you keep a handle on the power driving the poweramp cause with that much power the first thing you destroy will be your hearing.
 
t0aj15 said:
Set your cabs for four ohms and don't worry, it'll be fine. just make sure you keep a handle on the power driving the poweramp cause with that much power the first thing you destroy will be your hearing.
Click to expand...

FWIW
I agree.
 
I talked to Bryston. They said that the 4B SST is "happiest" running into an infinite load and that 4/8/16 doesn't really matter as far as "safety". However, given my Cabs (w/ 2 X EVM-12Ls that will handle 400w/ pair), the ideal match is to run at 4 (as Joegold said) which will produce 400w/ channel, exactly the theoretical max of the cabs. This will give maximum headroom. And, as Joegold said, I'm not going to get anywhere NEAR max on the Bryston. Running 2 Hiwatt DR103s thru same cabs is INSANELY loud w/ volume at 2. However, I still wonder if I shouldn't install a stereo limiter on the output signal (or use one in the Axe), JIC.... IE: self-oscillating delay... Since the Bryston runs at 100% (no gain control), it's still a little scary thinking about making a mistake on the input level

Wiring it up today! Will report back.
 
My understanding, and it might be totally wrong, is that unless you send a clipped signal to your speakers they are highly unlikely to blow.
That's true of any speaker driver and any power amp.
But if you send a prolonged un-clipped signal at or above the speaker's power rating the driver could also blow.

But since your speakers, combined in pairs can handle 400watts (which is a conservative estimate from EV I believe) and your amp only puts out 400watts into 4ohms you'll be fine.
And you really will go deaf before you blow those speakers with pretty much ANY power amp (except for maybe a severely under-powered ss amp that is constantly being driven into clipping territory).

I.e. Relax. Enjoy.
 
joegold said:
My understanding, and it might be totally wrong, is that unless you send a clipped signal to your speakers they are highly unlikely to blow.
That's true of any speaker driver and any power amp.
But if you send a prolonged un-clipped signal at or above the speaker's power rating the driver could also blow.

But since your speakers, combined in pairs can handle 400watts (which is a conservative estimate from EV I believe) and your amp only puts out 400watts into 4ohms you'll be fine.
And you really will go deaf before you blow those speakers with pretty much ANY power amp (except for maybe a severely under-powered ss amp that is constantly being driven into clipping territory).

I.e. Relax. Enjoy.
Click to expand...

Played 4 hours last night with this setup. It is AWESOME !!! A total game changer! Will be posting my rig and results in separate post. But, interestingly, it is not that loud--at least not to a guy who lost 30% of my hearing 20 years before they invented IEMs :(

I am running out of balanced output 1 to balanced in on Bryston. Cabs (2 x EVM-12L in each 2 X 12) are at 4 ohms (should mean about 400w/ channel from the Bryston). With output one on Axe set at about 8 (amp and other levels at 0 dB), it is VERY loud, but not ear-piercingly so. When I compare to the same signal going through 2 RCF NX12 (sitting on top of the EV cabs), the RCFs "seem" WAY louder but I think it is more the high end content.

How can it be that a Bryston pushing 400w/ channel into 2 X EVs/ channel with output levels on Axe at 75% that I'm not bleeding from the ears? Don't get me wron g. Its LOUD. But, my 2 Hiwatt DR103s run through same cabs are WAY louder (output levels at about 30%, masters at 100%).

Is this the difference between "Hi Fi" and a guitar amp? No clipping, lots of headroom = lower perception of volume? Or, am I now 50% deaf and just haven't figured it out... Check it out!
Bryston.jpg
 
It takes 10 times the power to create twice the volume. A 400 watt amp would only be twice as loud as a 40 watt amp. It will have much more clean headroom though. Also, is that 400 watt rating peak or RMS?

Those RCF NX12's have a much wider frequency response and wider dispersion pattern than the EVM12L's so that is also going to make them seem bigger, especially in the piercing high end, not to mention setup like that, the NX12's are close to ear level blasting right into your face while the EVM12L's are firing at your kneecaps. Get them both at the same height and pointed right at you for a better comparison.

The DR103's are rated at 100 watts clean. If you've got them cranked and they are compressing and clipping, they can be pushing as much as twice that power if not more.
 
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That is the answer, I think. The RCFs are WAY brighter. I am running them simultaneously (FRFR + Cab in the Room) w/ Output 1 (no cab) to Bryston and Output 2 via FXL (w/ cab) to RCFs. What I'm doing is blending the 2. So, by controlling the level of the RCFs (down X Db and using a bit of EQ to damp the high end) it is actually perfect. Also, in this environment (my studio), I usually play sitting down so directionality less of an issue. This was more of a theoretical question and you answered it well. I was just curious why the RCFs sounded so much "louder". I think a ton of it is EQ. The EVs, as "broad range" as they are, are no match for the HF tweets in the RCFs (thank God!).

Bottom line: The EVs sound awesome and, if I want more FRFR, I dial up the RCFs a bit, I'm not sure I will keep using this setup. With proper EQ, I think I can get everything I want out of the Bryston/ EVs. But, I can't resist the urge to try both together!

BTW, for those FRFR diehards, I am still sending the Axe direct to Pro Tools via AES and to FOH live. This is just about what I hear. I need the "amp in the room" for my ears
 
krcassid said:
Played 4 hours last night with this setup. It is AWESOME !!! A total game changer! Will be posting my rig and results in separate post. But, interestingly, it is not that loud--at least not to a guy who lost 30% of my hearing 20 years before they invented IEMs :(

I am running out of balanced output 1 to balanced in on Bryston. Cabs (2 x EVM-12L in each 2 X 12) are at 4 ohms (should mean about 400w/ channel from the Bryston). With output one on Axe set at about 8 (amp and other levels at 0 dB), it is VERY loud, but not ear-piercingly so. When I compare to the same signal going through 2 RCF NX12 (sitting on top of the EV cabs), the RCFs "seem" WAY louder but I think it is more the high end content.

How can it be that a Bryston pushing 400w/ channel into 2 X EVs/ channel with output levels on Axe at 75% that I'm not bleeding from the ears? Don't get me wron g. Its LOUD. But, my 2 Hiwatt DR103s run through same cabs are WAY louder (output levels at about 30%, masters at 100%).

Is this the difference between "Hi Fi" and a guitar amp? No clipping, lots of headroom = lower perception of volume? Or, am I now 50% deaf and just haven't figured it out... Check it out!
Bryston.jpg
Click to expand...

Something about your description sounds off to me.
Maybe you're attenuating the Out 1 signal somewhere else w/o noticing?
Global EQ? Etc.
Are you sure that your Presets, especially your clean Presets are gain-staged optimally?
For cleans I always have the Amp Block Level as high as it will go before causing the Out 1 (or 2) clip leds to light (when I hit all 6 strings hard with the guitar pots cranked on the bridge pickup).
Overdriven tones should be much lower on the Level parameter to balance relative levels between clean and overdriven tones.

FWIW
My rig, with only 200watts per side driving 1 12L per side (@8ohms), is ridiculously loud if I need it to be.
 
Yeah, it didn't sound right to me either. I expected the Bryston/ EVs to be INSANELY loud. That's why I asked question above. But, yes, my levels are all optimized. And, the same signal (w/ a cab) is going to the RCFs via FXL and is REALLY loud. But, Output one (amp w/ no cab) going to Bryston, is running at 75% w/ amp level at 0 dB and input/ master at same exact level going to RCFs.

My only question: could it be the cab? I simply removed the cab from the line going to the Bryston. The 2nd line, going to FXL/ RCFs has a cab. I do notice that when you remove a cab (amp simply goes direct out), you lose level. Could this be it? Could simply removing the cab (to save CPU) as opposed to bypassing it cause output level to drop a lot? Preset below:
bryston%20axe%20edit.png
 
No. Bypassing the block on thru mode is the same as swapping it for a shunt. If CPU is very high you can get weird behavior and glitches, but otherwise CPU load will not affect level. Use the VU meter in the Utilities menu to verify Out 1 and Out 2 are at the same level. Also make sure the front panel output knobs are set the same too.
 
Thx. Will try VU. Was using the output knobs to control these 2 outputs. I have 2 (RCFs) set to max and 1 set to 75% (trying to make sure EVs don't get too much). But, I figured I'd need 1 at about 25% to tame that Bryston. Very surprised it is not blowing up my face. Gotta be something weird here....
 
OK. I checked VUs. I am getting identical output levels on both output 1 and output 2 (about 80% of max on VU). Still, with Output 1 (to Bryston) at 100%, it is loud but definately nowhere near a loud as my 100w Hiwatt DR103s thru same cabs (not even 1/2 as loud). I do notice that the "taper" of the output knob on front seems odd. IE: going from 50% (loud but not ridiculous) to 100% really only raises the volume maybe 20%. And, even with amp at 100% master volume, level at 0 dB, it's still tolerable volume. If I turned my Hiwatts up to the same settings thru the same cabs, my ears would be bleeding. So, how can a 100w Hiwatt (just as a reference point) be 100%+ louder than a 400w Bryston into the same cab??? I checked/ rechecked speaker wiring, impedance... All good. The Bryston is going into the same 2 speakers (in parallel = 4 ohms). The Hiwatts are set at 16 ohms and run into same cab (in series = 16). There, I have a 100w amp with input level at 30%, master dimed, and I've got stuff falling off the shelves. Just doesn't make sense. Sounds great tho!

Could it be that I am just so used to "distorted signal" that the super clean Bryston does not "sound" as loud? I always wondered how the guys using 800-1000w Matrix dealt w/ this. Their amps have more than double the power of the Bryston. If you turned a Matrix up to 50%, would it be insane?
 
I think that when you run the Axe into the tube power amp of the Hi Watt that you're likely driving that power amp into the non-linear (i.e. distorted) range.
The 100 watt rating is just the max that amp can put out w/o distorting the signal.
Once the signal surpasses the the clean headroom limit of the amp it starts to compress and will seem exponentially louder.
This is why 30 watt guitar amps can sound so loud.
But they can't be that loud and hyper clean at the same time.
Guitarists have liked that in guitar amps.
But with the Axe all that tube power amp clipping is modeled inside the Amp Block.
So you want the power amp you choose to amplify the Axe's signal with to be as clean as possible at all levels.
You don't normally want to be distorting the distortion.

Still, that 4B should be REALLY loud.

I always find that the addition of a Cab Block to my Layouts sends a Preset into clipping of the Axe's out leds once I've loaded an IR into the Block.
If I then bypass the Cab Block the clipping goes away.
On my system, with my Presets, it looks to me like a mono instance of the Cab Block adds around 4db and a stereo instance adds around 8db.
So my Level parameter on my stereo Cab Block instances is always set to -8db.
It is possible that this is what you're hearing/sensing, but I doubt it.

Are you absolutely sure your cabs are set for 4ohm operation?

Have you tried bridging the Bryston yet and running it into a single 2 X 12 cab?
If so, then how loud was THAT?

Is it both clean and dirty Presets that you're finding are lacking level through the Bryston?
If you can't get your dirty tones ridiculously loud through that rig then you've definitely got a gain-staging problem.
Re-ckeck your levels at every point in the signal path.
On the other hand, hyper-clean tones need much more headroom from the monitoring amp than you might think in order to get real loud.

Maybe something's been turned down in the Layout mixer?
[In Axe Edit this is found at the far right of the window, the vertical area that says Output.]
Etc., etc.

Did you buy the 4B new or used?
Are you sure it's working properly?
How does it sound when you play CDs through it and FRFR passive cabs?
Etc.

Maybe post a Preset so we can see how it works on our systems.
 
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