Question about stereo vs mono effects live

[Hansen]

You said that you sometimes you run mono when you're playing live.

- If you just plug in one side of the stereo pair without doing anything else, then you're only sending one side of your signal to FOH.

- If you set the output mode to Sum L+R, then you are mixing both the left and right inputs, and sending both to FOH.

- If you set output mode to Copy L->R, then you are sending just the left side to FOH, no matter whether you're using the left or right output.

You set output mode in Setup > I/O > Audio.

If both cabs are panned to center, then the output of your Cab block in mono.

I have output mode set to Stereo. The idea is that if I play live stereo I use stereo presets (very rarely) and two XLRs to FOH. If I play mono (which I most often do) I only connect to one XLR and use my mono presets which have no stereo effects. Am I right that even if the output mode is set to stereo it will end up mono anyway and I will not have any phase issues, etc?

 

[Rex]

I have output mode set to Stereo. The idea is that if I play live stereo I use stereo presets (very rarely) and two XLRs to FOH. If I play mono (which I most often do) I only connect to one XLR and use my mono presets which have no stereo effects. Am I right that even if the output mode is set to stereo it will end up mono anyway and I will not have any phase issues, etc?

If you are in Stereo mode and send both right and left channels to a mono FOH system, then FOH is summing both left and right channels together. There may be phasing issues, depending on how your stereo effects are set up.

If you only send one channel to FOH, there will be no phasing issues. But you might not get all of your sound if you have anything planned In your preset.

 

[chris]

I have output mode set to Stereo. The idea is that if I play live stereo I use stereo presets (very rarely) and two XLRs to FOH. If I play mono (which I most often do) I only connect to one XLR and use my mono presets which have no stereo effects. Am I right that even if the output mode is set to stereo it will end up mono anyway and I will not have any phase issues, etc?

A single signal from the axe is mono.

 

[getlostinsound]

Take this with a grain of salt if you like, but I was inspired by sound engineer Dave Rat a few years ago to start running just about every instrument in our band in stereo (all hard-panned at the mixer). I use hard-panned cabs on pretty much every preset on the Axe, but I make sure that both the left and right sides sounds great on their own. This way, you have the advantage of mono (not worrying about whether the audience can hear everything in the mix if they’re standing closer to one speaker), but you get the benefit of stereo for the majority of the audience, not to mention less phase cancellation between the two PA speakers, at least for each signal that is run in stereo.

This is the video that inspired me to go this route. Before you knock it, listen to his logic and examples.

 

[chris]

Take this with a grain of salt if you like, but I was inspired by sound engineer Dave Rat a few years ago to start running just about every instrument in our band in stereo (all hard-panned at the mixer). I use hard-panned cabs on pretty much every preset on the Axe, but I make sure that both the left and right sides sounds great on their own. This way, you have the advantage of mono (not worrying about whether the audience can hear everything in the mix if they’re standing closer to one speaker), but you get the benefit of stereo for the majority of the audience, not to mention less phase cancellation between the two PA speakers, at least for each signal that is run in stereo.

This is the video that inspired me to go this route. Before you knock it, listen to his logic and examples.

Agreed. I love stereo when possible. I don’t need every listener to hear the same exact thing so I’m not worried about center point or whatever. Even if someone only heard hard right or whatever, it’s still a nice sound. That said I usually send a mono signal (just the left side) to mains as most venues are mono mains. Stereo for my monitors or IEMs and everyone on stage loves it.

 

[Lax]

how would you manage two guitarists with stereo rigs ? If you don't want to go one guitarist a side

 

[Rex]

how would you manage two guitarists with stereo rigs ? If you don't want to go one guitarist a side

You could pan one guitar a little to the left, and the other a little to the right.

 

[getlostinsound]

how would you manage two guitarists with stereo rigs ? If you don't want to go one guitarist a side

We run both guitars in stereo, each one hard-panned to both left and right. This way everyone hears both guitars at the intended level of the FOH mixer, whether they’re closer to the left or right side of the audience, but there’s still a stereo image (and less phase cancellation) wherever you are.

 

[Rex]

We run both guitars in stereo, each one hard-panned to both left and right.

Isn’t that the very definition of mono?

 

[Smittefar]

I think he means - both send stereo signals to FOH and those two stereo signals are both panned hard L/R. I read it wrong at first too

 

[Rex]

I think he means - both send stereo signals to FOH and those two stereo signals are both panned hard L/R. I read it wrong at first too

Eh? A stereo signal already has a right channel and a left channel. How do you pan the right channel farther right?

 

[Smittefar]

Right channel is panned hard right, left channel is panned hard left.

 

[Rex]

Right channel is panned hard right, left channel is panned hard left.

So...full-width stereo?

 

[Lax]

I should have asked "how much would you pan two stereo guitars in a band" because it led to a blurry answer
I think he meant zero panning and both full stereo.

 

[getlostinsound]

We run both guitars in stereo, each one hard-panned to both left and right. This way everyone hears both guitars at the intended level of the FOH mixer, whether they’re closer to the left or right side of the audience, but there’s still a stereo image (and less phase cancellation) wherever you are.

Isn’t that the very definition of mono?

Not if the left and right are treated and processed differently. Sorry if the stereo/panning language I used muddied the waters. See my previous post:

I use hard-panned cabs on pretty much every preset on the Axe, but I make sure that both the left and right sides sounds great on their own. This way, you have the advantage of mono (not worrying about whether the audience can hear everything in the mix if they’re standing closer to one speaker), but you get the benefit of stereo for the majority of the audience, not to mention less phase cancellation between the two PA speakers, at least for each signal that is run in stereo.

In all the bands I play with, I'm either the sound provider or we're playing a stage where we advance the input list. I take stereo inputs (2 channels) from almost all of the instruments, make sure each side of the signal sounds good on its own, and then hard-pan the left and right inputs for each instrument on the mixing console. Panning all of the instruments hard L/R leaves a really nice space for the vocals in the center. This setup wouldn't make sense for recording an album, but it's the only no-compromise way I've found to have a great stereo image but still make sure everyone in the audience hears all of the instruments.

Here's how one band runs things:
Electric Gtr 1: left and right are different cab blocks (sometimes different amp blocks), FX are in stereo
Acoustic Gtr: stereo IR, tone-matched each channel separately from each side of an XY mic pair. Also stereo FX
Keys: stereo pianos and organ patches. Most synth leads and pads are processed differently for L and R, depending on the patch (often separate but similar sounds for leads)
Kick: Inside PZM mic to left channel, outside resonant head mic to right channel (only the outside mic channel is sent to the subs though)
Bass: amp/cab modeling to L channel, DI to R channel, run through stereo FX (sometimes), sent to console

Vocals are single-source input
Snare has 2 mics (top and bottom), but both are panned center
Toms and drum overheads are panned out between 25-35% L and 25-35% R to create a little bit of a stereo image

 

[Rex]

I should have asked "how much would you pan two stereo guitars in a band" because it led to a blurry answer
I think he meant zero panning and both full stereo.

First things first. You can't pan a stereo signal. You can pan a mono signal within a stereo field. And if you treat a stereo guitar signal as two different mono signals, you can pan those around independently, however you like.

So how should you pan those two left and right mono fields coming from a single stereo guitar feed? That depends on how they were created, and what you're trying to do. If the dry signal is panned hard one way, and the wet signal is panned the other, you probably don't want to preserve that separation in a live mix.

On the other hand, if both stereo guitar signals are set up so the dry sound is straight up the middle and the wet sounds are panned hard, and you just feed that straight into the board, you'll have to accept the fact that you have two mono guitars with stereo effects.

If you feed the stereo guitar signal into a stereo channel on the mixing board, you probably won't be able to pan either side at all — all you'll have a available is a balance knob. If you feed that stereo guitar signal into two channels on the board, you'll be able to pan the individual channels — but now the sound guy has to mess with two faders every time he adjusts your level in the mix.


The bottom line: If you're going to put two stereo guitars into a live mix, you'll need to sit down with the other guitarist (and probably the band leader) and figure out what you're trying to accomplish. Design your presets around each other, and remember that you're their to serve the song, not to preserve the guitarists' stereo coolness.

 

[Rex]

Not if the left and right are treated and processed differently. Sorry if the stereo/panning language I used muddied the waters. See my previous post:


In all the bands I play with, I'm either the sound provider or we're playing a stage where we advance the input list. I take stereo inputs (2 channels) from almost all of the instruments, make sure each side of the signal sounds good on its own, and then hard-pan the left and right inputs for each instrument on the mixing console. Panning all of the instruments hard L/R leaves a really nice space for the vocals in the center. This setup wouldn't make sense for recording an album, but it's the only no-compromise way I've found to have a great stereo image but still make sure everyone in the audience hears all of the instruments.

Here's how one band runs things:
Electric Gtr 1: left and right are different cab blocks (sometimes different amp blocks), FX are in stereo
Acoustic Gtr: stereo IR, tone-matched each channel separately from each side of an XY mic pair. Also stereo FX
Keys: stereo pianos and organ patches. Most synth leads and pads are processed differently for L and R, depending on the patch (often separate but similar sounds for leads)
Kick: Inside PZM mic to left channel, outside resonant head mic to right channel (only the outside mic channel is sent to the subs though)
Bass: amp/cab modeling to L channel, DI to R channel, run through stereo FX (sometimes), sent to console

Vocals are single-source input
Snare has 2 mics (top and bottom), but both are panned center
Toms and drum overheads are panned out between 25-35% L and 25-35% R to create a little bit of a stereo image

Thanks for the clarification. That's a well-thought-out plan that illustrates the need to coordinate the design and mixing of the stereo instruments to make a sensible whole.

 

[ChristThePhone]

'Panning' a stereo signal actually means changing the volume balance between the left and right side.

 

[chris]

'Panning' a stereo signal actually means changing the volume balance between the left and right side.

That’s usually referred to as “balance.”

 

[m lebofsky]

One guitar band here. I will be trying live hard stereo panning (different amp and/or cab on each side). My thought is if each side is good on its own, and the combination is designed to be even better, then everyone wins. People standing far left hear the plexi, people standing far right hear the Bogner, people in the middle get to hear both. Stereo effects will only benefit 2/3rds of the audience, but oh well ....