QSC PA Opinions

[Rex]

I've heard that argued both ways. I've never done any meaningful test myself, so I don't have a definitive answer.

 

[mwd]

I'm asking questions that might have some scratching their head but our scenario is not your typical band. We were 3 piece, now (temporarily 2). We play live to a stereo backing track that we produce in our studio, and of course I run thru my Fractal (in stereo). The horizontal array of the previous Cerwin Vega tops gave excellent dispersion, with good power, to the small crowds we play to. We have no amps on stage. Totally silent stage except for what is acoustically reproduced (vocals, A.guitar).

So I have a lot of freedom to move stuff around and into areas that might give a 'normal' band fits...lol.

 

[Randall d]

In that case, the best bass response would probably be achieved by putting the two subs side by side in a corner facing out. The subs together will acoustically couple and the reflecting walls in the corner will act as a sort of "horn" and will project the bass out with the least amount of comb filtering. At least that is my understanding. It will be important for you to leave the Sub switch off on the CLR's and use some other form of active crossover; dedicated, or using the filtering on the mixer to send separately filtered feeds to the subs and the tops. IOW send a high pass filtered signal with a steep Q set at 100 Hz to the CLR's and send a low pass filtered signal to the subs with a steep Q set at 100 Hz (though the filter on the send to the subs is not really necessary due to the filtering built into the subs). Should sound great.

 

[BBN]

I've heard that argued both ways. I've never done any meaningful test myself, so I don't have a definitive answer.

For me, it's been trial and error. Each room is different.

Here is my opinion....take it for what it's worth:
If the stage is tall enough to provide a reflective surface for the sub(s), I like to put them in front.
This always gives me the best coverage and my subs are always felt.
But this isn't always possible even if the stage is high, because the clubs sometimes don't like me taking up that space.

If the stage has a wall on one side (so the band is kind of in a corner), I will put my dual 18" on that side, and try to get it against the wall a bit.
Again, trying to use the reflective surface.

Rex, I agree that there is knob you can turn up to get more volume....but if the subs are on each side of the stage, and not touching a reflective surface, I have found that I can never get them to hit has hard as if they were center stage (and against a reflective surface). I can't say scientifically why....I can just speak to what has worked and what hasn't.


I think we all agree that the KW118 subs will work well for the OP's situation.
I would recommend getting them, and trying different configs in different rooms to see what you feel gives you the best sound.

 

[barhrecords]

Live sound reinforcement is a deep subject but this forum is pretty cool in that several forum members have a ton of experience to share.

For small portable systems for us it boils down to few simple factors:

- Always get the HF drivers up as high as possible.
- Cover the room with the appropriate amount of SPL.
- Keep the sight lines to the stage as open as possible.

With the small system I use, I have four subs and two full range boxes. I stack two subs and a full range on stage L/R. It's not ideal or perfect for every room but works to meet the requirements I talked about above.

 

[BBN]

Live sound reinforcement is a deep subject but this forum is pretty cool in that several forum members have a ton of experience to share.

For small portable systems for us it boils down to few simple factors:

- Always get the HF drivers up as high as possible.
- Cover the room with the appropriate amount of SPL.
- Keep the sight lines to the stage as open as possible.

With the small system I use, I have four subs and two full range boxes. I stack two subs and a full range on stage L/R. It's not ideal or perfect for every room but works to meet the requirements I talked about above.

Agree on all points.

I used to go with the exact same config you have and it worked great.

I will echo, there is no one ideal system or config that is perfect for every room.
Just experiment a bit and adapt.

Understanding that the first step is making the purchase, I think the OP's proposed QSC purchase is a good one and he will not regret it.
It's a great system on it's own....and a great base if you ever want to expand.
It also is configurable that you can try subs in the center...subs on each side.....stacked subs on one side....

 

[mwd]

Currently I am leaning to an X32 mixer, (2x) KW153's mounted on poles to (2x) KW181's. I'm thinking to start out the KW153 might be more beneficial than the K10's using so few speakers.

 

[Randall d]

I have not heard the KW153, but I have compared the K10 and the CLR side by side over a sub. There is no comparison. The CLR sounded so much better it was almost jaw-dropping. The K10 sounds "okay", but once you have heard the CLR and then switch back to the K10, you immediately notice how muddy and "distant" the mids sound. The highs are hyped and shall I say "artificial sounding". In contrast, the CLR was crystal clear and the mids were very solid, musical, pleasing and clear. The vocals sounded like a real voice in the room (as opposed to being overly processed and harsh). I was using K10's. I immediately switched to CLR's after I heard one. No regrets whatsoever. I had several professionals also listen to the comparison and they were all stunned.

 

[BBN]

I have not heard the KW153, but I have compared the K10 and the CLR side by side over a sub. There is no comparison. The CLR sounded so much better it was almost jaw-dropping. The K10 sounds "okay", but once you have heard the CLR and then switch back to the K10, you immediately notice how muddy and "distant" the mids sound. The highs are hyped and shall I say "artificial sounding". In contrast, the CLR was crystal clear and the mids were very solid, musical, pleasing and clear. The vocals sounded like a real voice in the room (as opposed to being overly processed and harsh). I was using K10's. I immediately switched to CLR's after I heard one. No regrets whatsoever. I had several professionals also listen to the comparison and they were all stunned.

I'm not surprised.
I compared a bunch of tops at my place a little while back.
The CLR's sounded better than all other speakers....by a wide margin.

The KW153, being a bigger box and higher SPL output, will likely cover more territory though. So these are not a bad choice at all.

 

[GtarLover]

Can you list the speakers you tried in the pic there please?
I can't quite tell what they all are...thanks

 

[guitarjim]

I'm not surprised.
I compared a bunch of tops at my place a little while back.
The CLR's sounded better than all other speakers....by a wide margin.

The KW153, being a bigger box and higher SPL output, will likely cover more territory though. So these are not a bad choice at all.

Just for clarification, was this comparison for the Axe output or for the FOH for the entire band?

 

[BBN]

Can you list the speakers you tried in the pic there please?
I can't quite tell what they all are...thanks

Yup:

In order from left to right:
JBL SR-X4712
Atomic CLR
RCF NX12ma
JTR Triple 8
QSC HPR122i
QSC KW122



In order of my personal preference:
Atomic CLR
JTR Triple 8
RCF NX12ma
QSC KW122
QSC HPR122i
JBL SR-X4712

 

[guitarjim]

Yup:

In order from left to right:
JBL SR-X4712
Atomic CLR
RCF NX12ma
JTR Triple 8
QSC HPR122i
QSC KW122



In order of my personal preference:
Atomic CLR
JTR Triple 8
RCF NX12ma
QSC KW122
QSC HPR122i
JBL SR-X4712

This is a bit of a mindblower for me. I'm embarrassed that I didn't think to try this myself. I have two CLRs and I'm moving to IEMs so I won't need them on stage. Using the CLRs as tops for FOH would save money, and back pain.

May I ask what type of music you used in your test?

 

[BBN]

Just for clarification, was this comparison for the Axe output or for the FOH for the entire band?

My comparison was for FOH band.
I played program music and (me playing) live music as my test.

Program music was a range of everything. I was really looking for pleasing highs, clear mids and plenty of vocal clarity and intelligibility.

My live playing was me doing a quick 2 track recording of acoustic guitar and vocals. I recorded directly to a digital recorder, and played the two tracks back into my mixing board (and then into the speakers).

I was hoping the JTR Triple 8's would be my favorites, because they were expensive.....but they were not.
I would encourage anyone to do the same with any speakers they own.....put them up on sticks and run some program music.
You will be surprised how all of a sudden, a speaker you think is great, sounds boxey or harsh when compared to other speakers.

I LOVE the QSC HPR122i's. I own 4 of them.
And they were my second to last choice after doing these comparisons.
Imagine how surprised (and secretly disappointed) I was.
And that's not to say that the QSC's couldn't be Eq'd to sound better....but when I juse went for simple A/B comparison, the Atomic won.
This still plagues my brain to this day, because I gig with the JTR's even though I know the Atomics sounded better.
For some reason, I have not been able to bring myself to buy a pair of passive Atomics. I have this weird feeling that they fold under pressure....even though I cranked the sh*t out of them and they held up perfectly.

 

[BBN]

This is a bit of a mindblower for me. I'm embarrassed that I didn't think to try this myself. I have two CLRs and I'm moving to IEMs so I won't need them on stage. Using the CLRs as tops for FOH would save money, and back pain.

May I ask what type of music you used in your test?

It was a mind blower for me too....and my other guitarist who came over for the listen.

For program music I played a little of everything: but because I'm a hard rock guy, I always test with Rage. Killing In The Name of is one of the best test songs I have. I also play Goldilox by Kings X. That's one of my favorite songs and I know exactly how I want to hear the vocals. If Doug's voice sounds harsh or lost in the mix....I know right away. But I also through some top 40 or hip hop, to hear how the snyth stuff comes through from a clarity perspective.
I would always recommend listening to songs you know well. The better you know the material, the better you can judge if it sounds the way 'you know it to sound'.

Side note on Rage: when I took engineering classes with Dave Moulton, the creator of the Baolab 5 (by B&E) speakers, he played Killing In The Name Of.
Besides being the most amazing listen I've ever had of that song....I asked Dave - you like Rage???? (he's an older guy).
He said - it's not my favorite style of music, but I use this song for demoing my speakers because this is an outstanding recording/mix.

 

[BBN]

This is a bit of a mindblower for me. I'm embarrassed that I didn't think to try this myself. I have two CLRs and I'm moving to IEMs so I won't need them on stage. Using the CLRs as tops for FOH would save money, and back pain.

May I ask what type of music you used in your test?

You don't know what embarrased is until you listen to your (at the time) favorite JBL SR-X4712 speakers against the CLR's.
The JBL sounded so bad I couldn't even listen. Nasal, honk, washy.....and I had been gigging out with these for the past 2 years!!!! What was I thinking?!!

 

[GtarLover]

So you are basically saying that the CLR's beat the competition?? Crap, I have 4 K12's and I have been using a pair of HPR112i's for my tops for a few years now. DAMN!!!
Wondering about K12's, because they sound great as monitors, more clear and punchy than the HPR's. Maybe switch to the K12's for tops. I don't want to have to sell ALL of them, LOL.

You using the powered CLR's?? I have a powered rig currently and like this set-up.

 

[yek]

Great thread. :encouragement:

 

[BBN]

So you are basically saying that the CLR's beat the competition?? Crap, I have 4 K12's and I have been using a pair of HPR112i's for my tops for a few years now. DAMN!!!
Wondering about K12's, because they sound great as monitors, more clear and punchy than the HPR's. Maybe switch to the K12's for tops. I don't want to have to sell ALL of them, LOL.

You using the powered CLR's?? I have a powered rig currently and like this set-up.

I am not using the CLR's....I am currently using JTR Triple 8's for my small PA and JBL SRX722 for my big PA.

I would switch to CLR's if I could find a good passive pair for sale. I live passive for my FOH....lots of reasons, but I'll spare you the details.

 

[BBN]

So you are basically saying that the CLR's beat the competition?? Crap, I have 4 K12's and I have been using a pair of HPR112i's for my tops for a few years now. DAMN!!!
Wondering about K12's, because they sound great as monitors, more clear and punchy than the HPR's. Maybe switch to the K12's for tops. I don't want to have to sell ALL of them, LOL.

You using the powered CLR's?? I have a powered rig currently and like this set-up.

I love the HPR's too. I have 4 of them.

Find a CLR and put it on a Tripod next to the HPR.....and just sigh like I did.

I did one gig with CLR's as FOH and it sounded great.
The only thing I didn't like was setting the gain staging on the input knob on the CLR.
It's easy with the Axe beacuse I can crank my Axe to the loudest I would go.
But with a PA it's harder. Trying to pick the loudest instrument (likely a kick or snare) and having him bash away while I set the input knob on the CLR. I didn't love that....nor did I put them as loud as they probably could have gone, because I was afraid I'd blow them up.
That is why I'd feel more comfortable with Passives.