Problems recording multiple layers using AXE-FX

enemymindchris said:
You aren't mixing ownhammer IR's with stock or redwirez ones are you? I do remember reading on here that there was something with the way they made their IR's that would introduce a different amount of latency than other IR's...which would cause phase issues. Only if using 2 cabs @ once though, and I think Ownhammer was in the process of correcting that. Where are you panning the tracks in the stereo field, this may shed more light on your M/S mastering wierdness. From the sounds of it you are using seperate mid/side eq and multiband compression in mastering? In my experience while the Axe does emulate the things I like about tube amps when recording you cannot treat an axe IR track the same as a tube amp tracked with mics, they are just not the same.
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This is a good point, though I haven't tried to mix Redwirez with Ownhammer or either one of those with stock cabs. I was under the impression they were all phase aligned with the stock cabinets, though.
 
just curious:

do you have a Little Labs IBP or a similar phase alignment tool, so you can confirm that these are indeed phase issues?
 
Just my 2 cents... I used to double my guitar tracks as a rule of them. I had all of my mix templates set up for it and never gave it any thought. When I actually took the time to really sit back and mess with the mix, I found that it didn't always work. I'm not saying that there isn't a potential problem with this specific instance that we shouldn't at least try to figure out. All I'm saying is that I learned that I couldn't assume double tracking guitars would always be an improvement. I had to approach each song case by case. I have read articles about some bands that realized they had made some pretty big mistakes with tracking too many guitars, and have since pulled back to a more minimal approach. That would include some bands that lost their grammy award to Jethro Tull. :)
 
I agree. I have really been steering clients with 2 guitarists away from doing more than one track (performance) each. What you gain in size just isn't usually worth what you lose in tightness and attitude of the performance. I do track with a sennheiser 609 on the cap and a rode K2 on the cap edge, this seems to give some perception of bigness without the drawbacks of adding tracks. I do usually double track if it's only one guitar, with different amp settings on each take for depth.
 
...also a thought. Are you by chance running both gtr tracks through a single compressor send? That can cause wierd stuff like that because the comp will be triggered by the more dominant track but affect (compress) both...which ends up sounding like what you are describing (wierd/phasey).
 
bkrumme said:
I assume you are having the guitarist (or yourself if you're playing) actually play the part twice. If so, this is truly odd. If you are re-amping, this would make sense actually, because the initial guitar signal is perfectly in sync.
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I'm not reamping or anything. I'm actually playing the same part twice.
I'll post some examples tomorrow.
 
enemymindchris said:
You aren't mixing ownhammer IR's with stock or redwirez ones are you? I do remember reading on here that there was something with the way they made their IR's that would introduce a different amount of latency than other IR's...which would cause phase issues. Only if using 2 cabs @ once though, and I think Ownhammer was in the process of correcting that. Where are you panning the tracks in the stereo field, this may shed more light on your M/S mastering wierdness. From the sounds of it you are using seperate mid/side eq and multiband compression in mastering? In my experience while the Axe does emulate the things I like about tube amps when recording you cannot treat an axe IR track the same as a tube amp tracked with mics, they are just not the same.
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For this patch I'm just using stock IR's.
Yes I'm doing mid/side EQ and compression in the mastering process.

Hmmm what do you suggest I do?
 
No I cannot confirm this, I dont own an IBP. It just sounds funny when I start double tracking hard panning like there is too much central content and certain frequencies start to pop more.

DonPetersen said:
just curious:

do you have a Little Labs IBP or a similar phase alignment tool, so you can confirm that these are indeed phase issues?
Click to expand...
 
enemymindchris said:
...also a thought. Are you by chance running both gtr tracks through a single compressor send? That can cause wierd stuff like that because the comp will be triggered by the more dominant track but affect (compress) both...which ends up sounding like what you are describing (wierd/phasey).
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I did try the PSP Vintage Warmer on the guitar Bus, but it was after I started noticing this strangeness in the sound. Vintage Warmer actually made the guitar tracks sound better.
 
I assumed you weren't re-amping, but had to clarify. Thanks for that.

Are you panning before or after the bus?

Typically what I do is double-track, hard pan left and right, send each of those mono channels to a shared stereo bus with a Direction Mixer/Stereo Spreader first in line to make more room in the middle and then Waves SSL G-Channel. Major EQ is done on the audio track and NOT the bus. G-Channel takes care of compression and some mild post-EQ. The Direction Mixer/Stereo Spreader is the important part here. When I DON'T use that, the sound isn't so great. It's after I clear up the center of the mix when it all comes together.
 
I use pretty much the same formula with the exception that I apply compression on each track before the eq and before sending it to a group buss which usually has very light chorus and a stereo width plug. I just feel it better preserves the individual dynamics of each track, keeping more of the double tracked vibe...just how I do it.
 
bkrumme said:
I assumed you weren't re-amping, but had to clarify. Thanks for that.

Are you panning before or after the bus?

Typically what I do is double-track, hard pan left and right, send each of those mono channels to a shared stereo bus with a Direction Mixer/Stereo Spreader first in line to make more room in the middle and then Waves SSL G-Channel. Major EQ is done on the audio track and NOT the bus. G-Channel takes care of compression and some mild post-EQ. The Direction Mixer/Stereo Spreader is the important part here. When I DON'T use that, the sound isn't so great. It's after I clear up the center of the mix when it all comes together.
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Thanks! Thats a great tip.

What I'm doing is recording hard pan left and right then send each mono channel to a stereo bus.
I usually EQ in the stereo bus (I'm lazy hehe) and tried adding the PSP Vintage warmer for a little compression and warmth.

What is this Direction Mixer/Stereo Spreader you are talking about? Never heard of that.

Thanks again for the help!
 
guitarzpt said:
What is this Direction Mixer/Stereo Spreader you are talking about? Never heard of that.

Thanks again for the help!
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No worries :D Any time I can help, I will.

In Logic Pro, there are plugins called Stereo Spread and Direction Mixer. The Stereo Spread plug is a little more convoluted and difficult to get working right. It's really meant for making mono sources sound stereo. Direction Mixer is easy and quick, and suits this purpose VERY well. It lets you place the sound where you want to put it in the mix, whether that is in the front or back of the mix, to the left or right, any place in a full 360 degrees. Then it has a stereo width control to choose how far out the stereo spectrum should be. I usually keep the direction at default, but increase the stereo width from 1.0 to between 1.5 and 1.7.

Waves has a couple of comparable plugs available for ProTools. S1 Stereo Imager, and S22 Stereo Maker. The S1 is like the Direction Mixer and S22 is like Stereo Spread. I'm not sure about anything built into Protools or other DAW software.
 
bkrumme said:
No worries :D Any time I can help, I will.

In Logic Pro, there are plugins called Stereo Spread and Direction Mixer. The Stereo Spread plug is a little more convoluted and difficult to get working right. It's really meant for making mono sources sound stereo. Direction Mixer is easy and quick, and suits this purpose VERY well. It lets you place the sound where you want to put it in the mix, whether that is in the front or back of the mix, to the left or right, any place in a full 360 degrees. Then it has a stereo width control to choose how far out the stereo spectrum should be. I usually keep the direction at default, but increase the stereo width from 1.0 to between 1.5 and 1.7.

Waves has a couple of comparable plugs available for ProTools. S1 Stereo Imager, and S22 Stereo Maker. The S1 is like the Direction Mixer and S22 is like Stereo Spread. I'm not sure about anything built into Protools or other DAW software.
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Thanks again for the tips. I will look more into this spreader thingy.
I never heard of it being used on the guitar bus, more with vocals to get a stereo spread.

Can anyone give some tips about the best VST spreader plugin for stereo sources?
 
I use the waves S1...works great and makes mixes sound nice and big (wide). I use it on gtrs, overheads and any backing or non main vox that aren't panned center. 8)
 
enemymindchris said:
I use the waves S1...works great and makes mixes sound nice and big (wide). I use it on gtrs, overheads and any backing or non main vox that aren't panned center. 8)
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Tried using S1 as a test on the guitar group. Correlation droped to Red and the sound didnt work for me. Seems thinner and strange
 
I think we need a clip and as many details about the way you're tracking, resolution, etc... as you can think of. I've used the S1 a lot, always with good results.
 
enemymindchris said:
I think we need a clip and as many details about the way you're tracking, resolution, etc... as you can think of. I've used the S1 a lot, always with good results.
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Right I'll try and post a clip tonight.
Thank you guys for all the help!

What I'm trying to achieve is a modern rock sound, not metal but not pop rock
 
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