Problems recording multiple layers using AXE-FX

G

guitarzpt

Experienced
Hello,

I'm having my first attempts at recording guitars through the AXE-FX.
I'm a pretty experienced recording engineer and have recorded all sorts of tube amps and other modelers.
What I'm feeling with the AXE-FX is despite when I'm playing (monitoring through the DAW) the sound seems great, after stacking the usual left, right take for doubling the sound actually seems to sound strange, worse then one side playing alone.
It seems a bit phasey and also a bit harsh...
Everytime I recorded tube amps when I do the double tracking for left right panning, the sound actually turns more powerfull and beefier.
It is not the case with the recordings I've been trying with the AXE-FX.

Anyone noticed something like this? Any suggestions on how I can improve?

I'm recording the AXE-FX from Out1 into an API 512c preamp through Lavry Blue AD conversion.

Best regards
Ricardo
 
Are you recording to stereo or mono tracks? You said Out1, but there are Left and Right channels. If you're recording both L and R channels to a single track, you're probably getting phase cancellations.
 
What is the patch like as far as amp type, any FX, cab sims, etc? If you put up a link to the patch you're using I or several other people on here could try tracking it in. The guitar, front end to your DAW, converters and any processing in your DAW will affect things as well (nice pre by the way) but what you're describing has not been my experience tracking my Ultra through my Fireface UFX. There are a lotta variables involved though. Hope this helps.
 
enemymindchris said:
...he's coming into a mono API pre so it's not going to be 2 channels coming into that.
Click to expand...

Ok...wasn't familiar with the preamp. Could still possibly be 2 channels if he's using 2 of them.

We would really need to know about the patch and the I/O settings of your Axe-Fx to know what's going on. Also, be aware the outputs on the Axe-Fx are line level (+4dB).
 
Yeah, more details and a link to the patch would tell alot. I was asking about FX because if it's being tracked with any type of modulation on it and then being double tracked there's a good chance the peaks and troughs of the mod on the 2 tracks will not line up and cause some phase issues. Also, how are the tracks panned in relation to each other?
 
Are you enabling direct monitoring or monitoring after your recording software does it's thing? It kinda sounds like this may be a result of something your recording software is doing to the signal after the fact.
 
Sorry for the delay, I was out on a little vacations.

I'm just recording through the left out of the Out1 to a mono track on cubase.

bkrumme said:
Are you recording to stereo or mono tracks? You said Out1, but there are Left and Right channels. If you're recording both L and R channels to a single track, you're probably getting phase cancellations.
Click to expand...
 
enemymindchris said:
What is the patch like as far as amp type, any FX, cab sims, etc? If you put up a link to the patch you're using I or several other people on here could try tracking it in. The guitar, front end to your DAW, converters and any processing in your DAW will affect things as well (nice pre by the way) but what you're describing has not been my experience tracking my Ultra through my Fireface UFX. There are a lotta variables involved though. Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

How can I post a patch? This is a simple Marsha HBE amp modified slightly I think it was one of Mark Days patches.
 
I was asking about the patch to determine if you were tracking in with any modulation FX from the AXE. I apply any mod FX in Nuendo to avoid such issues. Where are you panning the tracks? On a side note, I do get much better results recording direct if I do have a cab @ low volume in the control room...seems to make things sound more "real". YMMV
 
guitarzpt said:
Sorry for the delay, I was out on a little vacations.

I'm just recording through the left out of the Out1 to a mono track on cubase.
Click to expand...
So are you recording L OUT TWICE and panning L/R, copying the 1st track and panning to R or recording a 2nd track from R OUT?
 
guitarzpt said:
How can I post a patch? This is a simple Marsha HBE amp modified slightly I think it was one of Mark Days patches.
Click to expand...

You can use Axe-Edit or another program like Sysex Librarian on the Mac or MIDI-OX on PC. You need a MIDI interface.
 
s0c9 said:
So are you recording L OUT TWICE and panning L/R, copying the 1st track and panning to R or recording a 2nd track from R OUT?
Click to expand...

Recording twice!

One other thing I noticed when doing a rough mastering of a song was that there's a lot more guitar content in the Mid of the M/S mastering then I have with other songs that I have recorded with tube amps, also the S side sounded strange...
Its really strange, one of the takes I did I even had to redo it because in some parts it actually sounded dead mono instead of stereo 100% panned tracks.
 
bkrumme said:
You can use Axe-Edit or another program like Sysex Librarian on the Mac or MIDI-OX on PC. You need a MIDI interface.
Click to expand...

I have the patch as I always edit with Axe-Edit, but how do I actually post it here?

Thanks guys for the interest in helping me out!
I appreciate it very much!
 
guitarzpt said:
Recording twice!

One other thing I noticed when doing a rough mastering of a song was that there's a lot more guitar content in the Mid of the M/S mastering then I have with other songs that I have recorded with tube amps, also the S side sounded strange...
Its really strange, one of the takes I did I even had to redo it because in some parts it actually sounded dead mono instead of stereo 100% panned tracks.
Click to expand...
I would hazard a guess that recording the same track twice and panning L/R may introduce some artifacts that could cause phasing or cancellation of the resulting output. They would not be identical - unless midi/programming driven - so that alone could be part of the issue. If you then add effects into the equation, you might have additional affect on the the resulting mix.
 
s0c9 said:
I would hazard a guess that recording the same track twice and panning L/R may introduce some artifacts that could cause phasing or cancellation of the resulting output. They would not be identical - unless midi/programming driven - so that alone could be part of the issue. If you then add effects into the equation, you might have additional affect on the the resulting mix.
Click to expand...

hmmm I'm not sure if I follow you. Its common practice to double or even quad track electric guitar tracks. I have never heard of artifacts unless diferent mic positioning were used when recording tube amps through speakers...
 
Hey guitarzpt,

our recording engineer was troubled by the same effect, and thought that the guitars sounded like they had phasing issues, and this was just with doubling+panning 80/80 or so. We were lucky to have a mesa 412 standing by and after firing that bad boy on, the engineer quickly came to like the axefx. So I'm thinking, something to do with the cabinet IR's it seems?

-Tuukka

edit. Anxious to see if the added vacuum tube modelling in AF2 will solve the issue!
 
Last edited:
tuux0rz said:
Hey guitarzpt,

our recording engineer was troubled by the same effect, and thought that the guitars sounded like they had phasing issues, and this was just with doubling+panning 80/80 or so. We were lucky to have a mesa 412 standing by and after firing that bad boy on, the engineer quickly came to like the axefx. So I'm thinking, something to do with the cabinet IR's it seems?

-Tuukka

edit. Anxious to see if the added vacuum tube modelling in AF2 will solve the issue!
Click to expand...


hmmm that could be an answer. But I think it still doesnt explain why a single guitar tracks sounds way better then stacking several tracks. It seems the more I add the worse this artifact becomes.
 
I assume you are having the guitarist (or yourself if you're playing) actually play the part twice. If so, this is truly odd. If you are re-amping, this would make sense actually, because the initial guitar signal is perfectly in sync.
 
You aren't mixing ownhammer IR's with stock or redwirez ones are you? I do remember reading on here that there was something with the way they made their IR's that would introduce a different amount of latency than other IR's...which would cause phase issues. Only if using 2 cabs @ once though, and I think Ownhammer was in the process of correcting that. Where are you panning the tracks in the stereo field, this may shed more light on your M/S mastering wierdness. From the sounds of it you are using seperate mid/side eq and multiband compression in mastering? In my experience while the Axe does emulate the things I like about tube amps when recording you cannot treat an axe IR track the same as a tube amp tracked with mics, they are just not the same.
 
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