Preset Leveling question

[Kelleys Heroes]

I'm having a hard time getting different presets built around different amps to be essentially at the same volume. So lately I have taken the approach of adjusting the output level within the presets as a last step among 3-4 different presets with differing volumes. Is this a recommended approach, after using the leveling approach in the manual to fix the levels in between scenes? Or am I missing a different method?

 

[sprint]

I use amp block level control with the preset levelling tool so that playing peaks at the bottom of the meter's red section. Beyond this - checking each fx block on vs off to make sure level is the same and adjusting, if needed, with the applicable fx block's level control. More and less distorted tones can be tricky as they may appear equal on the meters but sound unequal. For this I adjust by ear with the amp block level control while listening to a looped phrase across scenes or presets from cleanest to distortedest and mentally comparing for volume equality: each tone to the one auditioned before it and to the cleanest tone.

 

[Kelleys Heroes]

I use amp block level control with the preset levelling tool so that playing peaks at the bottom of the meter's red section. Beyond this - checking each fx block on / off to make sure level is the same and adjusting with the applicable fx block's level control. More and less distorted tones can be tricky as they may appear equal on the meter but sound different. For this I adjust by ear with the amp block level control.

I was trying to use the amp block exclusively, but then leveling a few diff. presets with different amps/drives, I find a few presets are significantly louder than others. Even though I used the leveling technique from the manual and get them all up slightly in the red. So, to fix my AC-20 preset which is quieter than my Plexi (for example), I would need to go into one of these presets and adjust all the scenes, which takes way longer than just matching changing the output block.

 

[sprint]

I was trying to use the amp block exclusively, but then leveling a few diff. presets with different amps/drives, I find a few presets are significantly louder than others. Even though I used the leveling technique from the manual and get them all up slightly in the red. So, to fix my AC-20 preset which is quieter than my Plexi (for example), I would need to go into one of these presets and adjust all the scenes, which takes way longer than just matching changing the output block.

I'd have to look at the presets to try and understand why they won't balance just with amp level - seems odd - I'm old and losing memory fast so if I start balancing overall in 2 places (amp and output) I'll lose track quickly. I find that if I level balance by scene as above I never have to balance across presets since they are already balanced by scenes. But there are a lot of gotchas that can throw the levelling off - mostly scenarios I neglected / forgot to test when level balancing each scene - like: boosts, drives, compressors (anything before the amp especially), modifiers, global block changes (these can be nasty) - can be a chore to find these things sometimes. Main thing is that you set up a thorough process that is consistent and that you do every time - lots of ways to skin a cat as me dad used to say - sounds like you have a good process

 

[Kelleys Heroes]

I'd have to look at the presets to try and understand why they won't balance just with amp level - seems odd - I'm old and losing memory fast so if I start balancing overall in 2 places (amp and output) I'll lose track quickly. I find that if I level balance by scene as above I never have to balance across presets since they are already balanced by scenes. But there are a lot of gotchas that can throw the levelling off - mostly scenarios I neglected / forgot to test when level balancing each scene - like: boosts, drives, compressors (anything before the amp especially), modifiers - can be a chore to find these things sometimes. Main thing is that you set up a thorough process that is consistent and that you do every time - lots of ways to skin a cat as me dad used to say - sounds like you have a good process

Thanks! Well, It might be a hack, but it enables me to level presets one at a time, and then quickly get presets in line with each other.

 

[Timgo]

I've noticed preset leveling gets you very close but testing them at gig volumes helps a ton. Some presets just sound louder than others based maybe on the amp or gains used. I adjust all to level and then bump the lead scene up on the output levels page. Works great for me.

 

[SJB]

In my humble experience, leveling presets in the studio or bedroom doesn't directly result in equal audibility in a live band setting. As alluded to above, different presets have different qualities that affect how well they cut through a mix of instruments in a live setting. For example, mid-scooped presets with higher gain tend to get lost in a stage mix pretty easily, whereas, presets that are cleaner, with relatively more mid-frequencies are generally more audible (at similar SPL). The room itself (shape, size, resonant frequencies, under flooring, etc.. ) will also affect to some degree the relative audibility of presets. For me, the solution amounts to a bunch of back and forth, and on-the-fly tweaking (at roughly "gig-level") until I get them tuned for the practice studio. Then, it's just a matter of turning it UP til you can be heard at a live gig.

As an aside, a related issue is using a Filter block as an SPL boost for soloing. What I notice is that to take a preset from being part of the rhythm mix to out front and loud during lead breaks differs from preset to preset. For scooped high-gain presets, I might use +5 or +6 db. For cleaner presets it might be more like +2 or +3 db. Again, for me, it's all by ear, and tweaking those details in a live setting.

My 2cents FWIW. - Cheers!

 

[Kelleys Heroes]

Yeah man, I'm leveling at a volume where my neighbors can probably hear the Plexi, but might ask me to turn up my AC-20

But my issue was really with having a bunch of my presets that are supposedly all leveled essentially to the "Max", and then doing a ballpark fix prior to going into a full band situation. We'll see how I did at rehearsal tonight

 

[JN99]

New to FM9, awaiting delivery actually. Can the USB output be used to level presets and scenes? That's how I level presets and snapshots today with my Helix, USB to Mac and I use the Orban Loudness Meter to measure LKFS and it works great. I just loop some basic chords and let the Short term & Integrated LKFS settle. Using this method I've had to do very little tweaking beyond the initial leveling. It's really been a great method, others I tried just didn't work nearly as well, resulting in what felt like never-ending tweaking needed.

 

[Sixstring]

I use the preset leveling tool and my ears and it works just fine.

 

[ChristThePhone]

New to FM9, awaiting delivery actually. Can the USB output be used to level presets and scenes? That's how I level presets and snapshots today with my Helix, USB to Mac and I use the Orban Loudness Meter to measure LKFS and it works great. I just loop some basic chords and let the Short term & Integrated LKFS settle. Using this method I've had to do very little tweaking beyond the initial leveling. It's really been a great method, others I tried just didn't work nearly as well, resulting in what felt like never-ending tweaking needed.

I don't see why you shouldn't be able to run the USB feed into your Loudness Meter and adjust your preset volume via FM9-Edit. What am I missing ?

 

[JN99]

It's not what you're missing, it's am I missing (or incorrectly assuming) anything? Hoping this can be done on the FM9 in the same way as I currently level presets on my Helix but don't know, hence the question.

 

[ChristThePhone]

It's not what you're missing, it's am I missing (or incorrectly assuming) anything? Hoping this can be done on the FM9 in the same way as I currently level presets on my Helix but don't know, hence the question.

I don't think you're missing anything. The FM9 USB driver (not sure if one's needed at all on a Mac) feeds the signal from the FM9. From there it works like any other audio source.

 

[JN99]

One last question on this. I've got the FM9 now and see there are volume/output knobs for each output. Assuming the USB output is essentially the same as any of the outputs at full volume level?

 

[GlennO]

New to FM9, awaiting delivery actually. Can the USB output be used to level presets and scenes? That's how I level presets and snapshots today with my Helix, USB to Mac and I use the Orban Loudness Meter to measure LKFS and it works great. I just loop some basic chords and let the Short term & Integrated LKFS settle. Using this method I've had to do very little tweaking beyond the initial leveling. It's really been a great method, others I tried just didn't work nearly as well, resulting in what felt like never-ending tweaking needed.

There is no USB output level parameter. Even if there was, that's probably not a good way to do it. To optimize S/N, you'll want to scale the output for optimal output using the preset level utility. You can meter that with anything you want in your DAW. Once that is set correctly, leave your levels alone. The last thing you would want to do is interfere with that level on the way to your computer.

 

[JN99]

There is no USB output level parameter. Even if there was, that's probably not a good way to do it. To optimize S/N, you'll want to scale the output for optimal output using the preset level utility. You can meter that with anything you want in your DAW. Once that is set correctly, leave your levels alone. The last thing you would want to do is interfere with that level on the way to your computer.

I need to dig in some more because this doesn't make sense to me (yet). Scale output to optimal output? And leave the levels of what alone? Is that to mean including the output knobs? It's those that are tripping me up since they cannot be disabled and I really don't know where they should be set. Color me confused at the moment.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this in Fractal terms vs. how I manage levels on the Helix. As I mentioned, bypassing the volume knob made it all so much easier. Doing so means full level output (same as Volume knob maxed) gets sent to XLR and all leveling is done in the preset (amp block, output block most commonly) to the desired loudness level. I measure loudness with the Orban loudness meter using USB out. Not having the volume knob in the equation means no inadvertent volume changes and no more trying to figure out how to keep a knob at the same setting.

 

[GlennO]

Digital output is always "full level". It wouldn't make any sense to attenuate it. In other words it should always be full range, which usually means peaking somewhere around -6 to -10 dB. Two common controls to perform the adjustment to ensure you have that healthy output level are: the output level of the amp block and the output level of the output block. The Preset Leveling tool gives you convenient access to both of those controls, and it shows the output block meter to help guide you (note: red in that meter means -10 dB. That trips up a lot of people who expect red to mean "clipping"). However, you can use meters in your DAW to help you with that adjustment as well.

The physical knobs only control the analog outputs, so that's not relevant for adjusting preset levels.

 

[JN99]

Quick question - leveling across Scenes. Where is the best place to do it?

This is where I miss the snapshot parameter control in the Helix... In the FM9, I can't use a block/channel that's shared across scenes for leveling between scenes. The best place then seems to be Scene Levels in the output block but I've read about some of the pitfalls of that, any other options?

It seems kind of silly to load up the same amp in a different channel just to be able to change a setting across scenes, e.g. gain for a crunch tone, but I guess it's either that or getting into scene controllers, which was recommended in a different thread to only use as a last resort.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

testing them at gig volumes helps a ton.

I think the issue is that, at louder volumes, acoustic coupling kicks in, which changes the effective gain of the amp. On an amp that's clean, the result will be added volume. On an amp that is distorting, the result will be added distortion without increasing the volume further. The solution is to level the presets at stage volume so the acoustic coupling has kicked in.

See "The "Modelers Don't Clean Up with the Volume Knob" Myth" for more information.

 

[GlennO]

The scene levels in the output block or a scene controller for the amp block output level will give you eight independent levels for your eight scenes. This is effectively the same thing as a level parameter in eight Helix snapshots. I'm not sure what you mean by "pitfall" or "last resort". The only thing to watch out for is a known bug where copying/swapping scenes doesn't copy/swap those parameters.