Preset charging creators

I would like to announce my new preset bundle for sale. These are exactly the same as the stock presets but after I tweaked them they actually sound worse than the originals. Aggressive pricing, first 10 buyers also recieve a complimentary dvd rewinder.
 
Commercial preset creation has been going on in the synth world for many many years, especially with the rise of the soft-synth. Packs are sold with the same licensing arrangements as sample sets are, single user, no re-packaging and reselling etc. Same with fx plugins.
But really, copyright is only as useful as u want to/ can make it, ie there's not much point in starting legal proceedings unless there's big $ involved, and I don't think anyone's getting rich from just selling presets.
However if you pinched the AFX prests and renamed them and sold tjem as ur own, I'd imagine you'd be getting a legal tap on the shoulder.
Likewise, if Fractal were to incorporate presets that had been created by you without your permission, I imagine you'd have legal cause for complaint.
If Fred buys ur prests for a dollar, then resells them as his own for $2, well u still have legal cause for complaint, but whaddaya gonna do?
And proving that a preset is urs would be another interesting endeavour....
However..…
We are a community brought together by a product, not an ideology.
People in this community use their AFx in many different scenarios, bedrooms, rockstars, production studios etc etc and all these scenarios have different requirements.
At different times of my life I have done music production type work, When a "client"' or job requires a particular "sound" and wants it tomorrow, preset packs are a f***ing godsend, one which I'm more than happy to pay for.
At other times I've had the time to fiddle and tweak endlessly, sometimes with encouraging results!
The selling of presets will not somehow dissolve the community.
Yes, buying something and then reselling it as your own work is a no no, bad, don't do it.
If you wish to share ur preset for free, please go right ahead. Perhaps I'll download it even say thanks.
If you wish to sell your preset, please go right ahead, Perhaps I'll buy it.
I don't see why this is a touchy subject, no one is making anyone do anything, u have the AFx, do with it as u please!

Carl
 
I remember getting the pod when it came out, the community, browsing presets for hours. I don't see that here, some guys give patches away which is cool. I don't care to give my stuff away, but presets on the axe rarely in my experience translate to my rig. I've downloaded some before where the levels about blew my speakers. Not sure how it would work for anyone.

To the original question, Ir's are intended not for resale, Guess the same could be said for presets, and there is nothing preventing it. I personally would like people to share, but to each his own.
 
Back in the day I did a series of presets call LPD Tone Clone Presets (for those newer comers). Most of these were cloning recorded tones for recording/direct use. Some used the new (then) tone match block, most didn't. I used the donations model and it worked well for a bit. There were people who would contact me demanding (yes demanding) that I share the presets with the entire community for free, but they were a minority. I always provided support and updated the presets following firmware updates, which in those days was almost monthly, and those who donated were really great appreciative folks. I still build custom presets/IRs for a good number of people as well as consulting/tutoring on building them and only charge for my time.

I personally see nothing detrimental in people using the free market to buy and sell presets. People who abuse the system (reselling others work) should be called out on the forum for the what they are and then the market will adjust. I don't necessarily believe selling presets destroys this community. I think demanding things for free does far more damage, as it spreads a sense of lack of appreciation for people's time, effort and experience (I miss Chef, he was a great guy with a great ear and tweaking skills).

To those currently marketing their presets I wish the best of luck in the endeavor. Providing a product that people find value in and are willing to pay for is always a challenge. Keeping people happy, doubly so.

Glad to see this discussion and that it is still civil.
 
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levipeto said:
I understand, that you guys want to get money for "your" presets, for your time, for your experience etc., but

1, I have seen settings being "re-used" from "free creators"
"Yeah, but I changed many other settings and I added mine".
Really? So, If I use your paid stuff as "inspiration" and change it to my liking I get to resell it? (I even add my IR, that I created with Tone-Matching the soundtrack) you get the point.

2, You are destroying a community (IMHO):
Because you guys are reselling others hard work (or they may think you are).
You make them hold back and think they should sell their presets, that they were going to give away for free to the community.
Yes, I see the lack of serious presets, effects, templates by default (factory presets are barely ok for demo, signature sounds have not much to do with the artist or song, but that's a different subject).
We can't expect Fractal to share their clients' settings so we need to do the work together. If some of you feel special then we are doomed as a community IMHO.

3, I understand, that if there is a demand, then there is business.
However, if you as charging creator ever download(ed) a preset from the forum or axe-change for free again without sending money to the (free) creator, then ... @#$! ... look into the mirror.

4. If you still will charge for the presets, consider these:
Tell your customer,
  • How long will you support it:
  • Is it just for the current firmware or until the next major FW update or forever?
  • Will you release the updated version for free?
  • Will you drop the price, when the new FW comes out and your preset loses its value?
  • Or is it just a one time deal for quick money?
  • Will you refund if it turns out you used someone else settings.
  • etc.
5, I fully support donations though and not just for presets.

Disclaimer: I just wanted to start a conversation, about the pros and cons regarding to this touchy subject. All these are just my opinion and I reserve the right to change them if I get valid reasoning.

What do you guys think?
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I disagree.

I don't buy presets, but I don't think there's anything wrong with someone trying to sell there's. Being a Fractal owner in no way entitles you to free presets.
-
Austin
 
dr bonkers said:
What made me take a break from sharing was people who would contact me privately asking me to update my presets to FWx or to sum stereo presets to mono. If one likes the preset, then make the changes yourself by ear. I am flattered when people ask me to do it, but if we have different setups, then you are going to need to tweak any work I do anyways.
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I usually just tell them I can't do that. Eventually they stop asking. :)

I love a free market. If you can make what you think is a suitable return on your investment of time, gear and knowledge selling presets more power to your! I fist bump your awesome entrepreneurship!

Just remember...
levipeto said:
Lets say i create an amazing preset that pple want to pay for, but the amp block was from Danny, the delay from Moke, cab is factory, reverb is from Fremen.
Should I be able to charge for it?
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EXCELLENT question! Really, I think this is the truly deep part of this discussion, this question is.

When is it "your preset" and when is it "just the work of others you pieced together"?

I have heard there's an unwritten rule in professional culinary circles that you need to change three ingredients to call it your own. And even then, it's murky as to whether a recipe can actually be stolen. Specifically:

U.S. copyright law addresses recipes, but what holds sway can be called either ethics or etiquette. Cooking is not considered inventing; rather, it evolves. Copyright law specifies that "substantial literary expression in the form of an explanation or directions," such as a cookbook, can be copyrighted but that a mere list of ingredients cannot receive that protection.​

The recipe <--> preset analogy seems pretty apt here. Presets are, really, after all, just a list of settings...much like a list of ingredients.

If you're knowingly using components from other's work, adding "adapted from" or "incorporated ideas from" is a nice gesture.

We could adopt a community standard here, ask the moderators to enforce it. That's what some cooking sites do:

At the eGullet Society of Culinary Arts & Letters, an online site for epicures, copyright laws and courtesies are a constant topic of discussion, said founder Steven A. Shaw, a lawyer-turned-food writer. Shaw contends that posting a lengthy discussion of legal and ethical conduct, enforcing detailed membership requirements and constant monitoring of content -- including recipes -- keep his site from joining what he calls "the Wild West" of online copyright violations.​

And, of course, if someone does get caught "stealin'", it's more likely the community backlash here would drive them out of business, right? From the article:

Professional cooks who publish recipes that blatantly copy colleagues' work without attribution are often shunned or gossiped about, but even then, lawsuits are rare.​

So, a little professionalism and a heap of honesty make sure the free market runs nice and smooth, maybe?
 
Exactly. Think of all the different era Muff clone pedals that are sold on the open market, or the D-style amp clones, or a number of other effects clones. There must be fundamental differences enough where they are not out and out theft of a design or there would be lawsuits galore.

The 3 ingredients standard would make sense in this application of presets ethics.
 
dr bonkers said:
Exactly. Think of all the different era Muff clone pedals that are sold on the open market, or the D-style amp clones, or a number of other effects clones. There must be fundamental differences enough where they are not out and out theft of a design or there would be lawsuits galore.
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With electronic circuits like pedals it's actually reasonably well-defined: you can copyright the layout of the circuit board. Full stop. The circuit? You can patent that (or portions of it). Though most guitar pedals use circuit topologies that are so mundane they're in the public knowledge realm. So two Muffs, with the same components list, but laid out differently are considered non-infringing.
 
Is it unfair to sell cabinet IR's if you didn't make the cab or microphone? Is it unfair to sell a sample library using a snare drum you didn't build? Is it unfair to sell a course on how to use the AxeFX when you didn't create it? I sit unfair to sell a digital guitar processor that emulates gear other people made? Seems a bit hypocritical to buy an AxeFX II and then say selling presets is somehow wrong.

They are being paid for the work they did. If they're ripping someone off, that's a different story, but I have nothing against people paying for presets that someone has put a lot of time and energy into.
 
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" I have nothing against people paying for presets that someone has put a lot of time and energy into."

I am not sure what selling presets has to do with the amount of invested time and energy.

A few people already gave that phrase. I would like to hear why do you guys emphasize that?
If someone made a quick preset, then you have problem with him selling presets??
 
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levipeto said:
I am not sure what selling presets has to do with the amount of invested time and energy.
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Have you ever bought a product before? Do you really think there's $4,000 worth of components in a boutique amp? Is there $5,000 worth of materials in a Gibson? Not only is there a markup so they can make a profit, but you're paying for the time it takes to make something, not just the cost of the parts.

Let me ask you something... does TSE deserve to make money on their TSE X50 amp sim? It's just a 5150 put into a piece of software. Does OwnHammer deserve to make money? They're just using other people's products to make short little audio files. I've yet to hear an argument from you why these things are okay, but selling presets are not.

EDIT: Since you edited your post...

No, if someone made a quick preset I wouldn't have a problem with that. If it sounds great, then they probably have spent a lot of time acquiring knowledge and skill that others don't have of how to make that sound. If it sounds bad, who cares? Just don't buy it.

3, I understand, that if there is a demand, then there is business.
However, if you as charging creator ever download(ed) a preset from the forum or axe-change for free again without sending money to the (free) creator, then ... @#$! ... look into the mirror.
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That makes zero sense. That's like saying "If you sell an album and then someone gives you an album for free, you're a jerk."

I'd very much like to know where the line is for you. The line where using other people's creations means you can no longer make money off of it. Should I have to build my own guitar and amp before I can put out music? Should I have to pay a royalty to Mesa in order to sell impulses I made of their cabs? Should Cliff have to pay hundreds of audio companies to be able to make the AxeFX?
 
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Another thing to consider is if you buy something & it doesn't perform as advertised you should be able to get a refund.
I personally have never ever once downloaded any preset, (free or purchased) that was useable. I recently bought a preset bundle to satisfy my own curiosity. I wanted to know once & for all if someone was able to overcome the "different rig" issue. Considering that my rig should be one of the more common setups & one that should be fairly neutral as far as coloring the sound, (HSS Strat w/EMG's•>AxeFX IIXL+•>FRFR Studio Monitors) there was not a single Preset nor a single Scene in the entire bundle that I could use. I'll even go as far as saying that not one was even worth tweaking or using as a template.
I personally don't care about the money I spent, as I got what I paid for. BUT, in this case I paid to satisfy my curiosity & NOT cause I wanted or needed the presets.
But here is where I see a problem: if I had bought this bundle and expected to be able to use them and perhaps was going to rely on them I would be SOL, as I can't get a refund. Is the time I took loading up the presets any less valuable than the creators creating them? How about my time I took to earn the money that bought the presets? Is that any less valuable?
If I were coming from that perspective, I'd feel pretty let down & ripped off.

I think that if the creator who charges for presets should ultimately also be willing to trust a customer at his/her word if they want a refund.
** I am making an assumption here & probably shouldn't be doing that, maybe some preset creators do give refunds? I'm just assuming they do not.**

I guess in the end though, if people are willing to pay, and people are willing to charge, then there is a legitimate market for it.
 
I do not know if it's my room or my soundcard or my monitor speakers or my guitar but indeed almost all presets are never to my standards even though plenty of people seem to like them. But it has never stopped me yet from buying presets so far. Actually I have bought 2 packages: So I the Fremen package a while ago and today I purchased the Preset A Day August package. As I'm a curious guy. And do not have any intention to go commercial to sell recordings or presets or whatever. It's just my passion and I love the forum, the axe fx and making music.

I'm still in the learning phase to get my killer tone and lately I'm not gigging due to illness and stopped playing in a band for now. So I spent my time on getting to learn the ins and outs of the Black Box with my gear.

Now I would like to understand the following:

I always look at different presets how they are build up and if I learned something or it's really something I would like to use I include these in my preset's. So after a while (let's say half a year from now) I have made all my own tweaks with all the things I learned from video's, screenshots, preset's I borrowed from axe change and then of course the commercial preset's.

Then I shoot a video of a song I made myself or played with a backing track and people ask me to upload the preset I used.
Am I allowed to UPLOAD this preset in this forum (attached the file) or on Axe Exchange??

As it will definitely (also) include items I learned or copied from commercial packages.
(so it will incorporate some "secret" settings or parts of blocks that I did not make myself but just tweaked to my liking)
As I do not want to be banned or have fights here in the forum, I'm just a curious guy and people can always have my presets if they want except the ones that I bought from Fremen and Preset a Day as a package).

But in due time this is something that can and will happen in the future....
 
I personally see a market for custom presets, and welcome them. However, they need to be reasonably priced and supported! Yes, there's a ton of time involved in the creation process, and at first looking at the investment of time compared to a reasonable price is crazy. For example, commercial sequences. I've created many and used them in the past for projects, and live use. The up front investment of time is huge! It's easy to spend several days perfecting one. @ $5 each or a bundle for $25 or $30 it won't be profitable for quite some time , but it's residual. Over time they keep bringing in money and there's no longer an investment of time involved! Same with IR's.
With Ax Fx presets, if someone want's to sell them, my opinion is, there's a responsibility to keep them updated which requires more time!
I've purchased a few out of curiosity,and all these guys creating them are doing excellent work! Very Impressive! However, for me, they still don't work with my set up in general, like the recorded examples sound! So $35 for a bundle, I'd buy and make a folder to put them in, because I have been able to use some of the effect blocks. $10 a preset, I don't need another $500 folder on my computer I don't use. Personally I've never gigged or recorded with a preset made by someone else, just hasn't ever worked for me. However some of the idea's and blocks do work! So I would buy them if they are reasonable.
 
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