Wish preserve output level Revised...Tweak button

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fsharpminor

Inspired
This is a wish for all units...i own the fm3 and have a fm9 arriving as soon as it gets out of customs in the UK. Often when working on a sound for live shows or in rehearsals on the unit , away from my studio, I will tweak the gain or an eq setting in the amp block. Imagine if in the ideal page there was a switch to "preserve output level" so that whatever I did to the amp, the output db remained the same. Like a make up gain on a compressor (and totally unlike a real amp). It would be very useful, when making quick tonal adjustments on the fly. I realise there is much more to perceived volume than just db, but it would be very useful to have this in the amp block.
 
Frequent wish. Drive controls are different for each amp, and other settings affect how the drive affects volume, so nothing is linear enough to compensate resulting level.

Other brand units may be able to do this because of how they model, which may not be as accurate as the fractal modeling approach.
 
chris said:
Frequent wish. Drive controls are different for each amp, and other settings affect how the drive affects volume, so nothing is linear enough to compensate resulting level.

Other brand units may be able to do this because of how they model, which may not be as accurate as the fractal modeling approach.
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I am sure that you are right in terms of amp modelling….I am thinking more in terms of simply ensuring that the output of the block remains at the same DB or signal level….and I absolutely agree that nothing should compromise the accuracy of the fractal amp modelling, which I love.
 
fsharpminor said:
I am sure that you are right in terms of amp modelling….I am thinking more in terms of simply ensuring that the output of the block remains at the same DB or signal level….and I absolutely agree that nothing should compromise the accuracy of the fractal amp modelling, which I love.
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What’s more important to you: having the same dB reading at the output, or having the same perceived volume?

Equal dB reading does not guarantee equal perceived volume. And perceived volume cannot be accurately predicted, for the reasons that @chris mentioned above. So you’ll have to adjust the Level by hand anyway. Nothing gained, really.

Besides all that, when I increase gain for a lead or a harder-driving rhythm passage, I want the gainer tone to be louder. Equal volume doesn’t help me here.
 
Rex said:
What’s more important to you: having the same dB reading at the output, or having the same perceived volume?

Equal dB reading does not guarantee equal perceived volume. And perceived volume cannot be accurately predicted, for the reasons that @chris mentioned above. So you’ll have to adjust the Level by hand anyway. Nothing gained, really.

Besides all that, when I increase gain for a lead or a harder-driving rhythm passage, I want the gainer tone to be louder. Equal volume doesn’t help me here.
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Totally agree with your points, as I said in my OP there is a lot more to perceived volume than dB. However don't agree with nothing gained. Here's how I would see it working. In the ideal page of the amp block, or possibly in the output page there is a switch to preserve output db level. The default of this would be off and it would not be part of amp modelling. I would add this to one of my performance pages and turn it on when I am making adjustments to parameters in rehearsals or even at shows. I realise that I might still have to tweak output levels to get them exactly right, but this would keep me closer to the ballpark. Im not thinking for a moment that it would remove the need to tweak volume, but it would keep things closer to where I wanted them, and had already tweaked them to be. I am really thinking of quick adjustments on the fly to patches that are already being used and are already mostly there in a live situation. It would be based on dB reading at the output. So thinking about it perhaps it makes more sense to be in the output page and have nothing to do with actual amp modelling....it could be in the scenes volume page.
 
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fsharpminor said:
Totally agree with your points, as I said in my OP there is a lot more to perceived volume than dB. However don't agree with nothing gained. Here's how I would see it working. In the ideal page of the amp block, or possibly in the output page there is a switch to preserve output db level. The default of this would be off and it would not be part of amp modelling. I would add this to one of my performance pages and turn it on when I am making adjustments to parameters in rehearsals or even at shows. I realise that I might still have to tweak output levels to get them exactly right, but this would keep me closer to the ballpark. Im not thinking for a moment that it would remove the need to tweak volume, but it would keep things closer to where I wanted them, and had already tweaked them to be. I am really thinking of quick adjustments on the fly to patches that are already being used and are already mostly there in a live situation. It would be based on dB reading at the output. So thinking about it perhaps it makes more sense to be in the output page and have nothing to do with actual amp modelling....it could be in the scenes volume page.
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are you envisioning the Level parameter (somewhere) actually changing? what happens when you adjusted with it on, but then turn it off? are those dB auto-adjustments saved?
 
chris said:
are you envisioning the Level parameter (somewhere) actually changing? what happens when you adjusted with it on, but then turn it off? are those dB auto-adjustments saved?
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Excellent questions. I assume that an output level would change....thinking about it perhaps the scene output level would be most appropriate. I would also think that the new level would persist until you changed to a new preset, unless of course you saved the preset. In which case the new level would be saved and the preserve output dB would default to off. Thats me thinking it through as a thought experiment, so I would welcome any thoughts, suggestions, criticisms or disagreements as to the usefulness of a function like this. I would see this as a function in the performance page....which is an incredibly useful innovation by fractal.
 
fsharpminor said:
Excellent questions. I assume that an output level would change....thinking about it perhaps the scene output level would be most appropriate. I would also think that the new level would persist until you changed to a new preset, unless of course you saved the preset. In which case the new level would be saved and the preserve output dB would default to off. Thats me thinking it through as a thought experiment, so I would welcome any thoughts, suggestions, criticisms or disagreements as to the usefulness of a function like this. I would see this as a function in the performance page....which is an incredibly useful innovation by fractal.
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So you increase the amp drive and the scene level changes? What if you change drive and master volumes from 1 to 10 on both but the scene level reaches its lowest setting before getting to 10?
 
chris said:
So you increase the amp drive and the scene level changes? What if you change drive and master volumes from 1 to 10 on both but the scene level reaches its lowest setting before getting to 10?
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Not sure if I quite understand what you mean? If you increased the drive and master volumes from 1 to 10 how would that make the scene level reach its lowest setting? apologies if Im not thinking it through correctly. Also what I am imagining is a function that would be used for fine tuning when in the performance page....ie in rehearsals and at gigs, not something for making major changes. Thats exactly why I think it would default to off when you changed either preset or scene, so you would have to consciously re engage it if you wanted it.
 
What ever the user decides.....thats not meant to denote an absolute range of changes. I think that if you used the function and then made a change which caused the scene output level to go to maximum or minimum then the unit would either clip or go silent. As with all of fractal gainstaging and volume changing it takes a while to work out how to use it effectively without messing things up, why should a function like this be any different?

Im really thinking it as a useful aid to tweaking on the fly....thinking about it, it could work by setting it up so if you hols down a button and adjust a parameter it preserves output dB.....like s shift function. As soon as it is released it returns to normal functioning.
 
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I do not see the practical use of canceling the level changes while tweaking. Anyway, maybe you could use a compressor/limiter at the end of the chain while you are tweaking.
 
Piing said:
I do not see the practical use of canceling the level changes while tweaking. Anyway, maybe you could use a compressor/limiter at the end of the chain while you are tweaking.
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Ok, of course you dont have to use it, and a compressor would have an effect on the sound, so that’s a different thing. If no one else thinks this would be a useful feature then the wish should deservedly be ignored. I’m sure fractal are working on plenty of other good stuff for us all.
 
so thinking about everyones comments, here is my updated thought process. A button when held would preserve output db level when editing any parameter in the ideal page of the amp block by 10% either way. This is based on my own tweaking live and in rehearsal, and yes I am aware that there is more to perceived volume than output db, but it would keep you in the ballpark. The button might also slow down the 'gearing' of the virtual knob being altered, allowing for finer adjustments. Its based on my particular use live. I am certain that fractal have much better ideas than this, but I thought I would put it out there.
 
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