POLL: The most accurate PAF replica...

[gibsonash]

I have 4 pairs of them... one is a Purewound set. I love them all.

+1 best pickups i tried

 

[pima1234]

Its possible. You gotta wrap your head around the fact that they dont really work like passive pickups. In position 2 and 4 its using a separate output on the pickup (called SCO) sent into the middle pickups preamp. That separate output is so low output and unusable without the middle. My HSH that i did i had the far tone do voice 3 (single coil) for positions 1/5 and the close tone did voice 2 on 1/5. 234 are controlled by the middle pickup...unless you want HH in the middle, you can...just more complicated wiring.

Thank you for the response. It confirms what I finally I realized that after doing more research.

I finally found what I think is the right schematic from the Fluence diagrams. If I'm right, this covers everything, except the pretty much useless middle single coil by itself. Folks on the TGP tech thread were pretty adamant about that as well.
https://www.fishman.com/wp-content/...Way-Super-Switch-Mini-Toggle-Battery-Pack.pdf

 

[Dave Merrill]

Thank you for the response. It confirms what I finally I realized that after doing more research.

I finally found what I think is the right schematic from the Fluence diagrams. If I'm right, this covers everything, except the pretty much useless middle single coil by itself. Folks on the TGP tech thread were pretty adamant about that as well.
https://www.fishman.com/wp-content/...Way-Super-Switch-Mini-Toggle-Battery-Pack.pdf

Forgive me, but how in heck did you get from "most accurate PAF" to Fluence???

No diss on whatever you want to do, or any of these pickups, but it seems you've jumped planets here.

 

[Churchhill]

Forgive me, but how in heck did you get from "most accurate PAF" to Fluence???

No diss on whatever you want to do, or any of these pickups, but it seems you've jumped planets here.

Yeah... still, 21 pages without a major derail or an outright war is a testament to how good this forum is, but I agree, Fluence is about as far from a PAF as you can get.

More on track... Anyone else wanna take a stab at which cover is which? After seeing them up close, the difference is really obvious now. Just curious is anyone else can see it. Link to the pic is below.

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/poll-the-most-accurate-paf-replica.205557/post-2573622

And yeah, visuals aren't sound, but are part of the vibe. The whole point for me is to inspire the person playing and, sometimes, looks matter.

 

[pima1234]

Forgive me, but how in heck did you get from "most accurate PAF" to Fluence???

No diss on whatever you want to do, or any of these pickups, but it seems you've jumped planets here.

100%. I was discussing the Throbak PGs, and then got into why I'm switching.

 

[Churchhill]

100%. I was discussing the Throbak PGs, and then got into why I'm switching.

No worries! I really appreciate your comments on the Throbak PGs, too. I was strongly considering those, but ultimately decided against them only because I tend to prefer a somewhat softer magnet than OA5. I do like what I've heard of the pickups wound on the Leesona 102 (as opposed to the 102B, which I like, too, but not quite as well) and I like pickups wound in that range (8.6k bridge, 8.2k neck). I wish I could try about 6 sets of Throbaks, but, well... maybe one of these days. The PGs would be one of them!

I'm planning on temporarily installing my Throbaks (DT-102) in a different guitar tonight. I'm planning to put them in my ES-347, but hollow-bodies aren't exactly fun or quick to switch pickups in and I really want to hear these pickups. Since I'm going to compare them to several others, I'll use an SG for testing purposes. Hopefully more to follow soon.

 

[pima1234]

No worries! I really appreciate your comments on the Throbak PGs, too. I was strongly considering those, but ultimately decided against them only because I tend to prefer a somewhat softer magnet than OA5. I do like what I've heard of the pickups wound on the Leesona 102 (as opposed to the 102B, which I like, too, but not quite as well) and I like pickups wound in that range (8.6k bridge, 8.2k neck). I wish I could try about 6 sets of Throbaks, but, well... maybe one of these days. The PGs would be one of them!

I'm planning on temporarily installing my Throbaks (DT-102) in a different guitar tonight. I'm planning to put them in my ES-347, but hollow-bodies aren't exactly fun or quick to switch pickups in and I really want to hear these pickups. Since I'm going to compare them to several others, I'll use an SG for testing purposes. Hopefully more to follow soon.

My guitar with those PGs is built from a heavy-duty piece of solid swamp ash, and has a Lollar Irish Tour middle single coil. So it's full of unique qualities, with plenty of switching options. I might actually prefer a set of humbuckers that are a little more open, but the PGs sound impressive split.

 

[Dave Merrill]

My guitar with those PGs is built from a heavy-duty piece of solid swamp ash, and has a Lollar Irish Tour middle single coil. So it's full of unique qualities, with plenty of switching options. I might actually prefer a set of humbuckers that are a little more open, but the PGs sound impressive split.

Interesting. What switching do you have in there? Wish you were in the neighborhood, I'd like to check it out

 

[woodbutcher65]

I know, I know, some people positively obsess over the "authenticity" and "faithfulness" of new built COPIES of original products, and that's fine, but it just doesn't appeal to me in the slightest. Who cares if the pickup was wound on the same winding machines Gibson was using in the 50s? Not me! I don't see how it can possibly matter. Who cares if the wire came from the same factory and was drawn through the same dies and varnished with the same original spec and color varnish? Not me! All I care about is that the pickup has a good sound I'm looking for and the price is reasonable. I don't care how it's wound, I just want it to sound good. Scatter wound, random wind, layer wound, or braided, I don't care. Whatever gets you there.

To me, the significance of "authenticity" in copies and reproductions is practically none at all. That may be important when judging original items but we're not talking about original items. You can end up wasting a ton of money chasing authenticity and at the end of the day, it's still just a copy. I'm not wealthy enough to be able to afford to waste money like that.

I actually do get it, in fact I make extremely authentic replicas of Marshall metalface and Plexi panels for restoration of original Marshalls from the JTM and JMP eras. But they are intended from the very start to be for restorations, and not intended to be used for clones or copies. Actually I can't sell them to clone makers if they bear any Marshall specific information that would apply only to Marshall built products.

 

[Churchhill]

I know, I know, some people positively obsess over the "authenticity" and "faithfulness" of new built COPIES of original products, and that's fine, but it just doesn't appeal to me in the slightest. Who cares if the pickup was wound on the same winding machines Gibson was using in the 50s? Not me! I don't see how it can possibly matter. Who cares if the wire came from the same factory and was drawn through the same dies and varnished with the same original spec and color varnish? Not me! All I care about is that the pickup has a good sound I'm looking for and the price is reasonable. I don't care how it's wound, I just want it to sound good. Scatter wound, random wind, layer wound, or braided, I don't care. Whatever gets you there.

To me, the significance of "authenticity" in copies and reproductions is practically none at all. That may be important when judging original items but we're not talking about original items. You can end up wasting a ton of money chasing authenticity and at the end of the day, it's still just a copy. I'm not wealthy enough to be able to afford to waste money like that.

I actually do get it, in fact I make extremely authentic replicas of Marshall metalface and Plexi panels for restoration of original Marshalls from the JTM and JMP eras. But they are intended from the very start to be for restorations, and not intended to be used for clones or copies. Actually I can't sell them to clone makers if they bear any Marshall specific information that would apply only to Marshall built products.

To me, it matters because the details of the winding have an effect on the resulting sound. Otherwise, all pickups would sound the same except for the difference in magnets. There are other variables, too, but if one isn't concerned with the details, only that it's a low-output humbucker or however anyone wants to describe a PAF, then they don't really matter.

Using a Marshall Plexi as an example, which is preferrable? A vintage original 1959 from the late '60s, a current manufacture Marshall 1959HW, something like a Germino, or a pre-assembled kit from Mojotone, Ceriatone, or the like? I think they are ALL valid choices and that it comes down to what one is looking for and how much they're willing to spend. If you think they all sound the same, that's your right, but my experience tells me that they all sound different. Even if you don't hear (or see) it, that's cool, and we don't have to agree. We're both entitled to our opinions, right?

Of course, everything but the original is a copy, including current manufacture from Marshall. Continuing with the Marshall example, what if you already had the 1959HW and a Ceriatone and didn't want to deal with the hassle of finding and restoring a vintage original?

In my case, I'm trying to determine how close the Germino gets to the original 1968 Plexi, or more importantly, who other than Germino makes a very good copy... except I'm not talking about 100w Super Leads.

The only thing that really matters is the music that comes out of it.

 

[woodbutcher65]

I own a real 1969 100 watt Plexi/Superlead myself. However it's "real" in the same sense that the Ship of Theseus is the same ship it was first constructed as. Mine was an absolute basket case, it had been modified and changed so many times that it's literally quicker and easier to run down the list of what remained as original rather than run down its changed parts. The original parts consisted of....the chassis pan, the choke, the turret board itself, and ONE component on that board. When I restored it I had not less than 86 non-original holes and acts of savagery welded up and repaired on the chassis. Put in a DET4145H power transformer and a Merren output transformer and repopulated the board with correct vintage original spec Piher and Iskra resistors, and Mustard caps, and Lemco caps, and did all I could to make it as close to its original build spec as I could reasonably afford. At the end of all that it sounds like a true '69 Plexi and looks the part as well. But it's the Plexi of Theseus. Is it original? Does it matter? It sounds the part. THAT matters.

And at the end of the day it was still a bargain after all restoration work was done. Got it all done for under 1500 dollars all inclusive.

Aside from the welding I did 100 percent of the work. I don't have a welding rig and am not an expert welder.

There's enough variation between pickups made to the same model spec and coming off the same production line, and in the same batch, that literally nobody can say and PROVE that it was the "original winding machine" that gives the pickup that "mojo". Or that the Alnico 5 or 3 or 2
magnet must come from a specific vendor. Although its magnetic strength and orientation of course have to be within certain specifications.

I simply do not believe that "it has to be from this source at this time period" to have specific properties.

 

[Churchhill]

That's really cool about your '69 Plexi! I've got a '75 50w that was rewired with lamp cord (literally) before I restored it.

Just curious, but why did you go with the Merren OT as opposed to a Mercury Magnetic, Hammond, or something else? Honestly curious about this because I've heard Merren is really good. Fortunately, both transformers in my '75 were still present and working, but at some undefined point in the future, I may build a JTM50 clone. At least it's an entertaining thought. I've built several amps and worked on maybe 100, so I believe I could given the time and desire. But that's why I'm curious, even if I'm not planning on doing so soon.

Actually, I agree completely with you that the specific source isn't a requirement for specific properties. There are a number of winders that at least claim to (and I believe most really do) replicate that specific winding pattern. That's one of the reasons why this was a difficult and complex decision for me.

What it came down to, for me, was that there were several handfuls of companies that are really close to the original recipe and I'm sure they're all good pickups. All are or claim to be using period correct magnets, steel, bobbin geometry, and processes (e.g. lead wire placement, how the covers are plated then attached, etc.). So, without spending a ton on trying each of them, I had to find a differentiating factor. My thought was that an original machine might be closer to the general era than a CNC winder (making an exact copy of a specific example) or a (very good) hand-wind. Seymour Duncan has a Leesona 102B, and I've heard that Gibson is still using a Meteor, but I already have pickups from both, which left Throbak. There were a lot of variables that I considered, but with the rest being equal, it just came down to what was different between the "finalists," that being the winding machine.

But yeah, I don't think one needs an original machine to achieve the same result, but it doesn't hurt, either. Honestly, I think the magnets make more of a difference as long as the winding pattern is close to the originals. I think that the shape and flux density of the magnetic field is more important than the exact formula of the alloy, but again, the closer to the original specifications that formula a magnet is, I think, the better it is able to create that field.

 

[woodbutcher65]

I chose Merren by his reputation for making the most authentic sounding transformers, and Mercury Magnetics has a reputation with the amp techs I know for making transformers that are too "stiff", "precise", and "analytical" plus they're quite a bit more expensive.

There are times when I'd go with Mercury but not when restoring a '69 Plexi.

Back to pickups, I think the properties of the magnet wire and its insulation are probably pretty important.

 

[Churchhill]

I chose Merren by his reputation for making the most authentic sounding transformers, and Mercury Magnetics has a reputation with the amp techs I know for making transformers that are too "stiff", "precise", and "analytical" plus they're quite a bit more expensive.

There are times when I'd go with Mercury but not when restoring a '69 Plexi.

Back to pickups, I think the properties of the magnet wire and its insulation are probably pretty important.

Thanks for the info on Merren. I've heard many people say they were the very authentic sounding and I can see that about MM.

I agree that the wire is important. I've heard that even within 42 AWG plain enamel, there's a lot of variation. I'd guess that comes from how the metal is drawn into wire, how evenly the insulation is applied, or possibly differences in the insulation itself due to modern environmental concerns. There was one manufacturer that was talking about testing each spool several times throughout and having had to reject some batches because they were too inconsistent. I've also heard that the wire was even more inconsistent in the '50s, one of the reasons why the originals varied so much. There's another manufacturer that has used wire that's apparently 100 years old, and several that have wire from the '50s available from time to time. Those can get really expensive, at which point I began wondering if a patent number pickup from the '60s might not be a better option. At least those are a little more available than PAFs from the '50s and "relatively" more affordable.

I think as long as the manufacture is aware of the differences between batches and even within spools, whether it's old or new wire, they can be capable of using those variances to their advantage. Having a lot of experience with original examples would be an advantage there. Seymour Duncan probably has more than anyone else (maybe DiMarzio), but several talk of maintaining databases of measurements and the guy behind ReWind co-wrote a book on the subject.

In any case, there's definitely a lot of hype and marketing surrounding all this, and it's been an interesting journey trying to figure out what actually might make a difference and what is pure snake oil.